DISCLOSURE / FILE
A declassified transcript of a Secret conference held at Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory on 16 February 1949 where Manhattan Project scientists and investigators debated the origin of the 'green fireballs' seen over New Mexico since December 1948.
DOE-UAP-D004, Los Alamos Conference on Aerial Phenomena, 1949
A declassified transcript of a Secret conference held at Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory on 16 February 1949 where Manhattan Project scientists and investigators debated the origin of the 'green fireballs' seen over New Mexico since December 1948.
The document is a stenographic transcript of a conference held at 1300 on 16 February 1949 in room P-162 of Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory, forwarded under cover letter SFD-3-1 dated March 22, 1949. Attendees included Manhattan Project physicists Dr. Edward Teller, Dr. Norris Bradbury, and Dr. Frederick Reines, along with University of New Mexico meteoriticist Dr. Lincoln LaPaz, an FBI representative, and Army, Navy, and Atomic Energy Commission personnel; the subject was classified Secret under AR 380-5. LaPaz walked the group through months of 'green fireball' reports that began in December 1948, including his own instrumented observation near Starvation Peak on the night of December 12, 1948, which lasted about two seconds, glowed a green estimated near 5200 angstroms, and traveled a nearly horizontal path. The group reached no consensus, with LaPaz stressing that the fireballs moved horizontally at 8 to 10 miles' elevation with near-constant velocity and produced no sound and no animal alarm, features he said he could not match to any conventional meteor fall.
And all this time the intensity uas approxiJDately constant?p.3
w-as most certainly not a. conventioll81 meteorite fall.p.3
the fireball which I personoJ.1y vi tnesaed on the night of December 12, 1948, ws not, in my opinion, e. conventional. meteor :fall.p.4
The green fireballs are unusual in this respect: probably that they a.re horizontal or nearly so, or that their horizontal path is traverced very lcn1 down in the otmosphere.p.4
V.ay I a.ok how many people have seen this one big meteorite?p.5
I ·would 88-,Y that there ere ten instances that definitely merit the moat eerioue conaidere.tion.p.7
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-- ------ - - - -- • L., U NIT ED S TATES A TOMIC ENE RG Y C OMM I SSIO N LOS ALAMOS, NEW MEXICO Authority: ADDRESS REPLY TO : NND 58378 11ANAGER, SANTA FE DIRECTED OPERATIONS IJ, S. A TOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION P. 0. BOX 1539 LOS ALAMOS, NEW M EXICO ANO REF ER TO: SFD- 3- 1 i.:a.r ch 22 , 1949 ----- ----1 _____, ------- _____ _ ,-1---- - ----1 ----, ,----• ...,,.,,_~~ -1'.a/..-y -- .---1 1----- --- -- - _____,_ Lt . Cndr . Riche.r d :..o.;:1do ll:or n 1-,:,,, M -..---I - M'S',."? !Ieo.dqv.o.r tero Sn.:.1dia Bo.se 1-1--/ Llb uquer quo , Ect, Lc::i co "N" - - 1--1~-1 - Doe..r Cmdr . :)1.~ell:or n : i-,.,~0:-1-4,-N-- -- - - 1------'-'---I- - - Furnished herevr'.th is o. Jcro..rncriyt of ,---- - ~F. - - --1 t:1e r:iinutos of t:10 co~u'erencc :1old o.t FILE - -I~ Lo:. Alll'D.03 ? ebr uo.rJ 16 , 1949 , per to.bi:ir; - - - -1 to c.cr ial ph0nono1ul.. Ver y t ruly yours , \ ~ ~ 4 --12~ ~ .t.r Sid::'.Cy ~ 1-;bw/gcr , Jr . a - Chief , Security Ope r ations Br anch E~cl : / fu; i,.di cn.tod De~ent of Eno«e)' ~ eluoific~tict> Remw 1 "fll'fllW•CY.li:2AAQC91 ~r:°""o!u ""lit .~°"' - - ~ ,.,.~IIS,ff-°"11'; ,., ~ < 11 When SGp"'rut d ~~';;,~~~~~~Mecl,(S1J handle this Z, Cv.ss:f i CATOiltf C,WAAl) fO - document as _____ ...:...-----,-- - 3. CQO('IMlS HO OCEcv.se,hEOiwo"' 4.CO::~Tev..nt ~,co S CUS$fllll>•-,OlftA<><nEO OITIIEll<Sl'fCIF'r): mu ,...... ___ ___ ..._ _ IIPage 2 · born-digital extraction
~ - ,~ COE'BREliCE On AERIAL PHENOMENA Held a.t 1300, 16 February 1949, 1n conference room P-162, Los Alamos Scientific La.boi."'atory, Lo& Alamoa, Bew Mezico. Present: 4th Any: Major Winn Major Oodsoe C~ptain Reef l!anima,naer Mo.lldelkorn t1n1versity ot XevMenco: La.Paa ~ - !'BI: Mr.Maxlrell. USAEC, 81"00: Mr. Morgan Mr. Bevburger University ot California: Dr. Bradbury D.r. Holloway Mr. Hoyt Dr. Me.nl.ey Dr. Reines Dr. Teller 1-1r. Ilelfburger opened the contereD.Ce and s~ted that the subJect ot Aerial Phenomena was olassifie4 Secret 11'1tbia the mean111g of AR 380•5 mld canparable appropriate regulations o~ the Navy and A11: J'orce~, and tba.t oil penonnel at this meeti?Jg vere properfy cleared. Mr. !l&wburger th<m 1nt1'0dueed Captain Beef, who briaf'ly outlined the purpoe" of tbia meet;ing. Captain Beet: It aU start d back 1n DecGmber, 1948, when w first received 8Ql1i.e reports from same airline pilats tha.t these 6NCJ1. :firebe.lls vere sisb.ted. At this s~e v~ bad no idea what to do with it or vhat it ,ran. We e.pprooobf:d Dr. LaPaz 'Who has been aqsisting us, gratis, since tbat date. Almost over two " months now that he hao been assisting us, oo in order to have you get the tacts _·' as they ue to a sc1en-tiet, I'll let Dr. IaPaz q:plain these tbings as we have ~ :found t.hem. Then you ~ give ua your opinion trom. theft; that 18 what we are '" interosted in. Dr. La.Paz: I would like to ·rev1ev ubat is observed in the ca.ee ot a. conven tiol'l&l. meteorite fall. Rot that I bave e.n7 )lopes of saying anytb1113 10u don't a,l.ready kncnf, but because I regard the observational ev14ence observed by tm, conventional meteorite falls as providine tbp necessary bac~ for tlhat is ?1,0t,J ob3erved. Meteorite falls (tor next minute or two, Dr. L&Paz'a cet!Jments on recoi-d drowned out by noise trcm ditell digger immediately outeide conference roQm) • • • • • • • Bece.uae of eou:nd phenomena ~, the hll ot a large me·lreor1te wiU cQWJe great frisht among button beings neceasar1.1.y but primari~ among animals, o~ all kind~. 'Ihe tact toll~, by- a meteorite falling into the • DECLASSIFIED ..... All1fladlJ HM R 5 8 2 J8 • BJ '.}Jl.1f · r fCARA, 8atf fp/3/ ~ fj(,
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• • ., Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 24 Dr. Teller: Nov let • s try to get a check ot thie. (Dr. TelJ..er then spent approximately the next twenty minutes or so figuring on the blackboard - estimating light, apeed, kinetic energy, shock wave, etc.) Dr. ':reller: If' I can just believe ev~rything I have hel.U'd and put it together w1th vb.at I theoretically believe in, 1t ought to be a material body • might be an electron. phenomenon. Dr. La'?az: You eee why rm puzzled, Dr. Teller. Nothing like this, to my knowledge, ha.a ever been observed in the case of meteorite drops. nr. Teller: It you go to a group like UCLA or sane other place where they have a good eoUDd laboratory, they ought to be able to take the a.boence of sound observations - that ie definitely incompatible, assuming that you know tb.e.t there are .o. and assuming that they have heard no sound from this, they ought to be ab:te to work an upper range upon the dgbt of the object which has been moving, end f'rom these figures I would be inclined to believe the obJeet could probably not have a heat 'lot something ' like l cubic centimeter. One centimeter in dimension, and that in turn would not have given the blinding effect, if it vas a material object. Dr. Bradbury: Wait a minute, I think you gve lett out something in light effects - you don't have to worry about kinetic energy. You can get your light from chemicals as well. Dr. Teller: That is correct. .. ........ Mr. Nevburger: This seemo to vind up the meeting. Dr. Bradbury: St1.ll don¥t feel tbat the meteor stuft is out. The puzzling thing is the long horizontal path; also, absence of noise is puzzling. hgc
Concatenated page-by-page transcript. Born-digital pages came through pdf.js; scanned pages were transcribed by Claude vision OCR. Pages marked unreadable failed multiple OCR retries (heavy redaction, microfilm artifacts, or blank separators) and are kept in place for audit.
-- ------ - - - -- • L., U NIT ED S TATES A TOMIC ENE RG Y C OMM I SSIO N LOS ALAMOS, NEW MEXICO Authority: ADDRESS REPLY TO : NND 58378 11ANAGER, SANTA FE DIRECTED OPERATIONS IJ, S. A TOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION P. 0. BOX 1539 LOS ALAMOS, NEW M EXICO ANO REF ER TO: SFD- 3- 1 i.:a.r ch 22 , 1949 ----- ----1 _____, ------- _____ _ ,-1---- - ----1 ----, ,----• ...,,.,,_~~ -1'.a/..-y -- .---1 1----- --- -- - _____,_ Lt . Cndr . Riche.r d :..o.;:1do ll:or n 1-,:,,, M -..---I - M'S',."? !Ieo.dqv.o.r tero Sn.:.1dia Bo.se 1-1--/ Llb uquer quo , Ect, Lc::i co "N" - - 1--1~-1 - Doe..r Cmdr . :)1.~ell:or n : i-,.,~0:-1-4,-N-- -- - - 1------'-'---I- - - Furnished herevr'.th is o. Jcro..rncriyt of ,---- - ~F. - - --1 t:1e r:iinutos of t:10 co~u'erencc :1old o.t FILE - -I~ Lo:. Alll'D.03 ? ebr uo.rJ 16 , 1949 , per to.bi:ir; - - - -1 to c.cr ial ph0nono1ul.. Ver y t ruly yours , \ ~ ~ 4 --12~ ~ .t.r Sid::'.Cy ~ 1-;bw/gcr , Jr . a - Chief , Security Ope r ations Br anch E~cl : / fu; i,.di cn.tod De~ent of Eno«e)' ~ eluoific~tict> Remw 1 "fll'fllW•CY.li:2AAQC91 ~r:°""o!u ""lit .~°"' - - ~ ,.,.~IIS,ff-°"11'; ,., ~ < 11 When SGp"'rut d ~~';;,~~~~~~Mecl,(S1J handle this Z, Cv.ss:f i CATOiltf C,WAAl) fO - document as _____ ...:...-----,-- - 3. CQO('IMlS HO OCEcv.se,hEOiwo"' 4.CO::~Tev..nt ~,co S CUS$fllll>•-,OlftA<><nEO OITIIEll<Sl'fCIF'r): mu ,...... ___ ___ ..._ _ II~ - ,~ COE'BREliCE On AERIAL PHENOMENA Held a.t 1300, 16 February 1949, 1n conference room P-162, Los Alamos Scientific La.boi."'atory, Lo& Alamoa, Bew Mezico. Present: 4th Any: Major Winn Major Oodsoe C~ptain Reef l!anima,naer Mo.lldelkorn t1n1versity ot XevMenco: La.Paa ~ - !'BI: Mr.Maxlrell. USAEC, 81"00: Mr. Morgan Mr. Bevburger University ot California: Dr. Bradbury D.r. Holloway Mr. Hoyt Dr. Me.nl.ey Dr. Reines Dr. Teller 1-1r. Ilelfburger opened the contereD.Ce and s~ted that the subJect ot Aerial Phenomena was olassifie4 Secret 11'1tbia the mean111g of AR 380•5 mld canparable appropriate regulations o~ the Navy and A11: J'orce~, and tba.t oil penonnel at this meeti?Jg vere properfy cleared. Mr. !l&wburger th<m 1nt1'0dueed Captain Beef, who briaf'ly outlined the purpoe" of tbia meet;ing. Captain Beet: It aU start d back 1n DecGmber, 1948, when w first received 8Ql1i.e reports from same airline pilats tha.t these 6NCJ1. :firebe.lls vere sisb.ted. At this s~e v~ bad no idea what to do with it or vhat it ,ran. We e.pprooobf:d Dr. LaPaz 'Who has been aqsisting us, gratis, since tbat date. Almost over two " months now that he hao been assisting us, oo in order to have you get the tacts _·' as they ue to a sc1en-tiet, I'll let Dr. IaPaz q:plain these tbings as we have ~ :found t.hem. Then you ~ give ua your opinion trom. theft; that 18 what we are '" interosted in. Dr. La.Paz: I would like to ·rev1ev ubat is observed in the ca.ee ot a. conven tiol'l&l. meteorite fall. Rot that I bave e.n7 )lopes of saying anytb1113 10u don't a,l.ready kncnf, but because I regard the observational ev14ence observed by tm, conventional meteorite falls as providine tbp necessary bac~ for tlhat is ?1,0t,J ob3erved. Meteorite falls (tor next minute or two, Dr. L&Paz'a cet!Jments on recoi-d drowned out by noise trcm ditell digger immediately outeide conference roQm) • • • • • • • Bece.uae of eou:nd phenomena ~, the hll ot a large me·lreor1te wiU cQWJe great frisht among button beings neceasar1.1.y but primari~ among animals, o~ all kind~. 'Ihe tact toll~, by- a meteorite falling into the • DECLASSIFIED ..... All1fladlJ HM R 5 8 2 J8 • BJ '.}Jl.1f · r fCARA, 8atf fp/3/ ~ fj(,
, , ' Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 2 earth, ts as you would elt!)ect, one at rend.ool - in azimuth and elevation. I.f the rad.laat t7hite is knovn., yor: can preciict the minimum angle with respect to the plane of the horizon nt which the m.eteoi-i•ce path has been observed. There is no choice, e.s f'a.r as the ..... for direction wen rceteorites fe.11 in at ranc1om. I'd like to contrast 11o·n-, at this time, thia fact with what has been observed by some indivi.duals here at the co.:?lf'erence and by r.::aey of the AESS inspectorll, UAL pilota, special a.gents, goodness knows how many other categories of people. I choose to describe ·Ghe only one of the incidents that I vas pereonally o. wi:~nesa to. It io the only one of the incidents that I am in a nooiticn to vouch fo~ on the basis of experience, dating from 1915, as a member of the Am~rican !>1etaor Society; w-as most certainly not a. conventioll81 meteorite fall. It -was the so-called St:U.--vation Peak incident on the night of December 1.2, 19116. 'l'iue of observation around 9;02 P.M., plus or minus 30 seconds. This rir0·oa11 nppeared in full intenoity instantly • there was no increase in light. Its color,, estimated to be somewhere arotmd wave length 5200 engstroma, .ms a. hue green, or yello-11 green, such ae I had never observed in meteor falls before. The path ua.e a& I!.etlrly horizontal as one could determine by visual observation. We have ~ pho·togra:1>h which might be some li--;; ra ot departure from horizontal.. The trajectory was traverse at, I am inclined to believe, constant angular velocity. Just befor0 the end of the pat;h ·there we.a the very 811gb.test drooping of the path, that io the green fireball broke into fragments, still bright green. Dr. Teller: And all this time the intensity uas approxiJDately constant? Dr. !.a.Paz:: All -the time, as fa'.!." ae I cou.ld determine. The eye, of course, is e.dmitted.l.~r a very crude phcrcographer. Dr. Teller: Rov long did the phenomenon last 1 Dr. 1-.'i.Paz~ Almost exactly two i:;econds. We have in the reports here, I brought the com:plt::te file nth ma and uould be glad. to circulate them, duration measures in 1•ela.tion. to all observations. Fev of -these, h~rever, I believe, were deter.Jlinoo under as favorable circumstancea as the duration of the Starvation Peak incident. Possibly I should go back and review the situation a little bit. Because oom~ report, iaau.ed by the AESS, uoul.d certain]Jr suggest that I was prinillrily responsible for starting this whole matter I am glad that Captain Reel' corrected that impression. Actually:- I YaS on an investigation in regard to -'che green fireball. observed on tho night of December 5th at the time the Dece111ber 12th incident occurretl. As a :result I was keyed up; I was 'WBtehing; I h'.1.cl a stop vatch with me and a transit. We got into position and made measures, transit :ciee,suros, on azimuths and elevation readings; that is, we ma.de a dm.·a:cion check, certainly within not more than tvo or three minutes sftor the incident occurred. To that extent, I believe, it is posaibly' the best observed ot any incident up to tha time of the January 30th fall. Dr. Manl~r: Hem did you have time to use ·t;b.e tranait? Dr. La.Po.~: The transit was in the back of ·the car. The mament the car was parked a:c the aide of th2 road, we yanked. the transit out and set 1t u,p and
, • Conference on AEBJ.AL PHENOMENA Page 3 began meauurement.s. We were i r. motion at the time but ,re ve1•e able to ge·t; a very good check of 'Uhat w obsc!'Ved at the time on the road near Starvation Peak. Ue had a cJ.ea.r view of the sky to the Northwest om the WeBt, and the object wan so low over the horlzon it was possible to compare 1t not o:nly to the ste.:r•a irith which I am f'am1J.iar, but with 1--espect to Il¥)untain peaks -~t were also visible. To continue, that duration vas a.bout two second.Q. 'l'his is one of tho puzzling ~s to the meteorists. I believe I do not exaggerate -.:hen I say tila:'c ':}(:ffa of the d~tion detcrmi:nations that have bclen made 1n the case of the green f'il."'eballs have given durations right in that vicinity. Whel'ees you -take, sa.y, 100 ord:luarymeteor observations you will :tind the ·widest diversions in durations. You could take tbe same leason a.a observed by 100 people - possibly that 0 z a better example .. and there would be wide va.rietionn in the estimates of dm-ation. Dr. MaDl.e~r: Did you correlate the ardmu.tha vith ..•.. '? Dr. LaPe.z : No. T'.iJ.ere ie an azimuth factor here which I am goiDg to talk to you about, that relates to the choice of clirection. Both our observations are single station observations, no that it beeomes impossible ~am the observe.• tion mec.aure to deter.nine the x·eal path of the fireball in the atmosphere. There have been only 'three caeea vhere the.t path was determinable. one, as I rece.ll it.:- 'W'aS tbat of Dacembez- 12, a.ncrcher December 20, and f'1nally, of course, the very :.nrge fall 0,.1 January 30, 1949. Pll give you some particulars on the path3. I do wrm:c to observe, however, that even our station observations present a puzzling eharacteris·,ic to the meteorista. If you plot what are called, by meteorists, the admiosible protozons for a gi'een fireball tbat has been obse11Ved, you vill find thut they give, on the average, an approach al:most to the North, come dOffll. from the North, they are not restricted to 'l • Bow whe.t about. -I.he real patbo? I e;ave sane indications e.s to the altitude at which m.eteoriteo normally disrupt full . . . . . and cme d0m1. That relates to the loi-rest . . . . . o~ path. The green fireballs are unusual in this respect: probably that they a.re horizontal or nearly so, or that their horizontal path is traverced very lcn1 down in the otmosphere. In the ce.se of the real paths f'or wicl'l vre have be - able to make determinations so ~e;r, those are sra,phical determinations, as ve have not taken the trouble to use Chablis (t) method& or . . . . . bec~use the observstions a.re regarded aa necessarily too rough for • ema.tical niceties. Those paths are ·traversed at elevations between 8 and 10 d.lee. I defy you to find anywhere amoDg meteorists, examples of conven tional. meteorites that move over long horizontal. pa.tbs reserving nearly constant angular velocities a.nd t.herefo1·e, on the average, con.st.ant linear velocities, at elevat iomi of the order o-r 8 to 10 miles. There is a good deal of evidence that may be of value in the complete reports that a.re available hore, but since this is sn introduction, I wuld like to summarize at. this stage: the fireball which I personoJ.1y vi tnesaed on the night of December 12, 1948, ws not, in my opinion, e. conventional. meteor :fall. S1!1Ce the majority of the green fireballs nave been reported to me, both before and. a:fter this December 12th occurrence., poeeess elnost all the propertielil vbich I persOllally observed on the night of December 12th, I feel that 1n all probabillty they are not themselves conven tional met,eol~ falls. Now, the easy wy out of this is -to coajure u;p an un•. conventional. type of . . . . . metcorite, vhioh comes in practically parallel to the
• Conference on AEICAL PHENOMENA Page 4 surface of the e~~h and is aa.:i.ehol{ eadowcd vith tbe property against the very grea"i:, atmor.pher1c reointance tlmt is experienced. on a level, it reserves neerly eons-t-..e.n.t ve1lccity over paths say of th.e order of 25 to over 100 miles, as in the case oi' the greeu fireball en January 30th. It should also bave the property that it is a very remerkable h·t1e of green, not heretofore observed, to my knowledge, in "i:.ho case of a:ey- conveutional meteor falls. And finally, and this pcseibly Ls the moa·I; i.1;1plausible :t"ea.ture of c.ll, that although 1t produce:, l:i.ght vi:;i".)lc at distances of the o:rder o-f 1!00 miles, it doeSI1't make e.. sound. J.:n the case of che Jru.?.uary 30th fell, due to the fact that there had been o. lcre;e mmibcr of milltc1-"7 :persoxmi:?l alerted, ve wre able to obtain obeervat:i.ona vith".n a minute af'\,je? the fall occurred end pursued the investiga tion over E'. d.i.atsncc of 1,600 miles - in Texas mud. prim2r1ly! - in some ten days• ti!lle inte..'1"V'ie'lf'lng li teraJ.J.y hundreds oz people, ,,e saw not one substan.. tio.ted accc,unt ot no:l.ee produced by the meteorite fall. Dr. Teller:· V.ay I a.ok how many people have seen this one big meteorite? Dr. laPaz: T'ABt .:a difficult to say. (r~cord blank for abort perl,od) •••••••• FinaUy, ir: the illten-ogation of such persons, w invariably interview them ae individuaJ.t1 . lie •:;rlod a :f'amily o'f 8 the first night, as Majo:z- Godsoe will recall.• :i.n·· erviev-lng ..•.. and :tt became apparent at once that there vas same i;ympe:chetiu influence o.nd we broke j_t off after I think the th:trd or fourth oboervatiOI~ c.:nd thereafter inte:.'.'Vie,red separately. Ii' you were to search, howe"ter, the inde::9endent observations of those who were v.tdely separated, !'.)ossibly stations o! the order of 100, ·there lrere probe.bl.y 100 ditterent staticna Teporting. D1·. Teller: What area did that cover? Dr. taPa8: All o::' New.Mexico, ell the Western half of Texas. I have a map here mth ume indic:itions of possibly the extent of that. Hoyt and B:•adbury: Wasn°t that Sunday the 2l~th? Dr. L~az: Ro, 1-t was definitely Sunday tha 30th. The nevspapers have very hrlrfull.Y conceelccl mst of the r~levan'G facts relating to tb.is f'ireball. First., they described it as a firebaJ.l., second, ·they .••• (record blank tor f'ev seconds). interi'eri·ec. m. th OSI and mum~t a.ble to do that this time. Thie is the f'ield map and ,rll.l give 111 various eolore, dots and pencil <iashs, etc. all of the obsei-vationa obta~ned on the T~a.s search. Dr. Tellel": All ~:elate to one i'a.1.1? Dr. 1'..a.Paz: Yee. T'aese lines a.re drat.'D. from points o:f observation. The center, cs you see. of i,o:·nts of e.ppearerce is SO"Jlevhere Southwest of Amarillo or South oouthveai of Amarillo. The disappe~.re.nce point is in the vicinity of Lubbock, Texas. At the time this Ul18 dr ...wn, before I 1-ra.s able to make out t?'aalSit meaoures 111 ·i;b.e v:l.cinity of Alb\:.querque, this ,re.o the beet apparent path of tho ?ircioo.llc. These other illk lines are independent, made by other groups ot obsej,""Vero i:rorking on the Scmle p:. oble:m. ( record blenlt again for short time) • Thi:; transtt, Uilfortunately, had. s. needle with a ben·c p1et-..on and it was Mt• Conference on AERIAL PBEI.JOMEHA Page 5 discovered until m,.ch 1e;~er tha-c ve uere getting faulty z-ecords. Independently, I b£.ve re~deten:.ined, using the best equip:nent available at tho University, the lines of sight a.t all po:~ta where the faulty t.rans1t had been used. I have plotted on this map only obser. at:l.on.s that I made pG>.-son.9.l.ly or such obuerva tions as I have c-,1cry reason to believe ,,rere Jnade by experienced personnel, for exam.ple UAL flyers, who took tll~ trouble to make measures, or possib~ civil engj.neel'G. Dr. Teller: You mean theae people right afterwards or shortly a.f'term,.rds took an i11st1'Ull:en:c e.tit. tried ·:;o meavure it? Dr. u.Pa.z: '.!..'hat a right. Dr. Teller: Thie is the po:Lnt where 1t disappeared? Dr. LaPa.z: And r.01-me.J.l..y', all you td.ll get is the point where it disappears, becauae t.te ave1•£1gc man is ali'ar~ ot the fa.ct that when he ii, not w.rned, he mak~s e. very im.t:curate observation. Having been uai-ned by- the appearance 0: the fireball, hio attent:J.on is fixed and he wtches where it bursts, where it explodes, where :it disappears. So I say thia is a much better det.o:m:Snaticm.. This begirning point, al-though you notice the .•.. of line here, is reasonably sa.tisfactcry. Dr. Te.lle1·: Are these points here observers of the teat, locations of those obs~rvatic:118? • Dr. LaPaz: Usua.Uy e. dotted c::rcle like tb&t illd1ca.tes a. reported sound obSe't'"• vation. f'e use this symbol: n c11·cle is a report, whether or not the observation includ.es azimuth o:? elevation, light appearances, is indicated ,,....,,. the preser.ce of a. cross. U i"G is blacked out, both light and aound vere heard. nu, ever;/ one o~ those thiI!go baa been disproved. In the area vb.ere the end poin.t w.u located, oil well drilling was underuay, dynamite blasting in connection 'f7i th ae'c·ting up of i-igs, same nitro beill,g used apparently to ehe:tter . . . . . In ave17 case ,re .rere able to e%Cl.ude the posaibil.1ty that the noioea :reported 00-tu.s..Uy 't1ere ·ded 1n vith the meteorite fal1. At least let me say, 1It my op:;.n:Lon, those noisee vere excluded. In certain cases, 1nde:pe.ndet:.tly, ths.:~ ws conf'ir~ed by a visit of Lt. Rym:l. of the Roswell group of -the om:. For instance, the best case of all, near Amherst ? , or noise - the obeer\-er, it ea true, was only a ten-year old boy, but be wrote a very intelligent letwr, and 1t is 1:-ell lmO"W tbat children, like en1maJ e, are more seru:;itive to sound than people v.bo have listened for too many years, say, to the xa.dio. It appeared eonceiva.blo that he had actually made a soUDd observa tion, but Lt. Ryan uent to Amhent ?, found that even three members of the family "i!ere not able to confirm his observation of noise cmd. no oue 1n the town, aome 300 o:r 4oo persons I think in all vere eetimated to have been visited, l'.O one o.t all had hem,! a sound, so I think that Mike probably hen.rd the samll! c~tc blaat as had been reported by Miss Winoon Didpasture .. I diful't tal.e that name out of the tunny papers, it actually exists. ( continual e~nation of the maps m th minor interrogations concern1.Dg markings.)
• Con:rerence on AERIAL PIDmO:mNA. Page 6 Dr. Le.Paz: W!th 0&"1e exception, in the ca.a,.., of' Roswell, there e.re two types of cound aasoci&ted 11ith meteorite fu.lls end, I acsume, associated vi.th the motion of any very high velocity projectile or missile through tbe air. T°J'.lere sre vb.at ~rc1c1ats wuld cul reczoneble oounda, end while he would not acknm,lede;e i J.;, s1multaneouoly with ~.;he c.ppaarcnce or a meteor1te, you hear c. meteorite, yhc physicist ,;rill refuse to believe the observation. revert.Jwleas, there i.a a tremendous volume of evidenc indicating that these m~maloU3 sc'\lllds oc:cu:..-red. Anyone who cioes field work 1n the search for zaeteo:rites 'tr.Lil c0:.1e acroso possibly 'JUI, oi' the observers who say that, although my a"i.tention ~ attracted by hn-..ari.Il8, a miining noise, e vhistling noioc: I looked up and ·Ghere ,mo the fir~bal.l. In o:ther words, this ana:nalnus 1?:ound a.ppe.rently attracts attention to the occurrence. I bnve an article by Brandon . . • . . one of ·Ghe flO!I.S of the man w~ first investigated the great creter out :,.n Ar1Zon3, and. s chap by the name or Bart ? vith 1r"ho:n I am not perao:aally ccgy.z.dnted but a :p~~icist ap_parontly at Princeton, 1n which they etteJeyt ·w ~ uotify t.b.e occurrence of ano:m.1.ous sound. They express 1 t roughly in th:f.a fe:aion. Elcctro.I!t3gnctic radiation is net up by (Dr. Teller excused. to anawer the phone.) Dr. L3.Pllz: You wouldn't believe it anylray! Ho~r, •.••• electromagii.etic ra.d.iction iu rectified somehow by the . • . • . changed into sound tbat can be heard and, •aieref'ore, you cu. he:u- the reetcorite at the seme time you ece it fell. In the case of the Roswell observation apparently that occurred. t::e have e;ro,.ql of five men • there uerc nea.r a. stee1 '1!ll0kestack • ond tSVfi1rY le.ct one of them m;e1.""'0 that they heard at the same time they were va.tchillS the green f:.reball eo by, c. noise like, se.y., o eaeoline blOV"torch. 'lb:lt ie ccrtoinly not an ordinary explosives cound. One :core thing in connection m:'Gb the noirnea. In every other :meteorite f'all, any one meteorite :tall that I ho.vc inventigated, - that cove1·0 ms.ey yea.rs .. I have ver yet found sn occasion of n detonating fireball., vithout meteorites caning dovn at all, :!.:!'l '!rh.ich ·chore vao not sam.e evidence of ala..""l!l of an1rnal s. Chickmls will fly e:-oun.il to tcy to uet under cover. DogG vill howl o.nd try to get into the houGe. liorsea vill run o.vay. In the ca6~ of the TCJm.s fall., in epite or the tranend.oun a.reg:. in llbich the llght 1,-as obcerved., we found not a a1ngl.e caoe in which ·c.ho w1rool6 vere disturbed. We lm2w ;,t the cdtie of a farmer who hwl, in mmny Te.me, a pond vi.the f'ive-inch layer of ice, tmo reported that e. ~~teorite had foll.en through the ice on tbat pond, had broken a hole. Captain Neef here pu-'c on o. pair of rubber booto l.1lld very thoroushly searched the pom wi-'Gho it finding n meteorite. Even 1u that oaoo there vae no evidence of alarm by ~h~ e.n1nm,Jo. I bel.ievc vith tlmt aummary, I'd better cease operations and have yo1 o.sk quetrl;icma. Q-u.estion: llou ?mny obnerved fall.6? Dr. L9.Paz: I'd like to clasaify thooo into three groups. I ·would 88-,Y that there ere ten instances that definitely merit the moat eerioue conaidere.tion. They are strictly e.mlogous to the green fireballs of the night of December 12. On top of that, there muat be sauething of the order of tmmtymore which ere
• Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 7 so ·irell rapo:..'ted, from Los Alaoos for example, tha.t although the green fire bsllu observed ohoved small . • . • the na.ture of the fireball • • • • many obs~rva"iiions ot ob3ervers· lrho paid prectically no attention to the sky at P.ny other time in their lives and now vhen they see a really bright light, they report it. You will find a great; na.ny instances of bluish-white tire• balls. In my op:!.nion, thoi.;e fa.lJ.iug vertical.ly and leaving trails, are c:iro:ply ordinary shooting stars. Of high intensity, that is, what we call fircbal.l.s, a blue light, 8.1.'e not in ezr:, sense to be associated with the green lights. Those th...-ee categories ·chen. Dr. Mmley: ? Dr. La.Paz: In the ce,se of the tuo green fireball paths, determined from Los Ala::no:s obse:r-·tations, in one caae the Ste.rvation Peak incident, we have an Ea.st-Wet3t :modon, and then also a motion exactly parallel to ••••• In other 'lfOI"d.B, ·these two real pe.tho Bho-vr, I think they are the only two ·or the first category that show any real dei.>artui e tram the • • • • • It is possible to explain t!l.S.t. It is qui.te evident that ue have no case ot assurance tb.s.t bot!.l gt-o~is of ob£ervcrs, the observe1·s at.Starvation Peak and the observers at Los Alamos, s11"t-·· the oame point of ..... so that if' we were to merely ask ·lfba.t are the linite Within which ouch real paths might fall., it t'l.1l'lU3 out tha:t it migb.i; be eo short ae 12 miles instead of bei:ng 25 miles long, and in ths.t case i ., .; woulo. be directed almost directly to the North; it vould come doun veey ncs.rly .,"i·thin 2 degrees, 5 ~et;rees say, of the North,. In the case of the 'l'exao obE:Cl'\ratioI\.8, whe:::-eao I hav-e ind.icated and the maps show, we ha;rn Jl'.I.BJ.lY obaervut.tons by tra:1.ned observers, motion :J.o clearly almost directly North -to South. I have been informed that tllan are reasons for regarding the . . . . . oat here (ditch digger) . . . and you no·cice that this passeo reasonably close to Lubbock. The seme is true of the two earlier fireballs, those of Decembe~ 12 and Decembe1· 20. They both ps.saed • one passed centrally over Loo Al.a.mos and the other about six mil.eo North o-r the center, but this would not be trae . • • . . (ditch digge::) . Ono point that poasibly should have been me -i;ioned ea.'1'.'ller is this: I 1mo the more interested vhen Captain Neef came to my ottice and brought the December 5th incident to my mind because very nuch earlier I bad been conto.c·.:;ed firet by • • • White, Director of Texas Obs~rve!"s, in regard. to ·their remarkable green :na..-re aecn on January 1, 1948. Second, f'rom a tr. Pru1tt, Director lforthweGtcrn Section, City &..~tion, o~ the Meteor Socie·Gy, I had been informed that earlier occurrences of bright green t'ireba.llo, r.ot too far f::.•om the Hanford area. When Captain Neef' came in ,;..r:i.th r(!l)orte of green fireballs ne~.r Lo.a Vegas and particularly when ho disclosed that the1-e l.'aG a Los Ala.mos near !Bs Vegas - the real !Qa Alamos - it 1.1ad much interest. Dr. 'BolJ.mray: Are there aey reports of theac from otlwr install&tions, such aa Troy, New York, or places like that? Dr. Le.Paz:. I xaised that ques..;ion end ! lmorr or no other cases. I mean to aay the a:~eaa from which these reports came, as in one, t'or such evidence as ..... , they do not relate to the green f'ireballs; they relate to the daylight occurrence of hcrlzo.ntaJ. moving, bright wbite obJecte - same in Memphis, Tem1essee iziMay, 1948 - tbat :..a not too far from Oak Ridge. They relate to
• Con.fer~nco on AERIAL PHEUO.MlfflA Page 8 the Ranfo1:d area as far as the Pru1tt observations go, a?Jd to the observations that I 8 1re mentio 1ed. here in the I.!ts Vege.s-Los Alamos e.rea • A very o. • • • • curious thing has came to light during these investigations. I published not long ago n.n artiole in Science mustrated on the recovery of the • o • • • T~m meteorite. The -'Yi.me that fell: Februnry 18, 1948, the rumor got around sameholf' in l,orthern Kensas and Southern Kansas that it was a Russian bomb, and 1t ,mu e.imed at the geogra1>hical center of the Uni ved States which is not -very far :."rem •• Apparently, a great many p~le gave credence to that o • • rumor and vere d~llghted mi.en 'tre i'inall.y recovered meteoritee up there and pro·red :l.t waan 8 ·, eeything but e-.n ol:dinary mcteor1te :fall. Incidentally, 1t did not have the cha:racteristics of tb.e ~ fireba:l.l we're t-Olk1ng about here. There mis a.n air transpor·i; pilot wo made a moet curious observation while fly-.lng near Cher-oourg on January 16, 1946. His observation was tbe observation of a bounning meteor. After 'tfliat I •ve been telling you about the green 1'1::e balls, you. probably think it not unreasonable that a meteorite should bounce but to thr~ meteorlytical mind J..;hat seems very hard to swallow. The interest is ·that oae or your ovn persons here at Los Alamos, one aDd confirmed at least in ~ b;r four othe!' persona, SE',v one of the green f"in:bal.le come down e:od 1 then glido of'f horizontally. lhe bouncing rueteor1te 1a, manually ezplained by having it fom, say sinusoidal motion lying in about the plane at wich the observer ·ma loo't:1.ng so that he first eav the high point of the curve or the peak. Th<! next time it vaa at the peok, it w.e so -r.s:r away that the altitude ,ro.s very :i.cn,, ";fhich will give yo1.1. the 8:l?Pearance of a bouncing meteorite. I otter-~·-; as a :possible explanation. ot course, he may have landed in Paris befcre he J!l£.de t::le Cher'bourg flight 8.Jld then we should disregard the testimoey ent:t1--ely! Mr. Iiewbu::-ger:. Dr. La.Paz, you men..i;ioned, I beli,ve, at one of our other meetingo ·.;hat they had compared the color of this with certain metals? Dr. LaPo.z: Tbatas r-lght. Initially ve coul.a. onl.y ask them what 'they thougb't it looked like. .And we got such interesting responses that ve eventually carried a:.~und a spectrum chart and al.loved. everybody to make hie own choice. Of' course, the use of the apectni:m clwrt lra.S UDI1ecessary il they have a color like one :Lady vho had aroUlld he:r neck a green scarf' vhich she assured. me had er..actly the ceme hue, but norma1ly not having euch tbb1gs to look at, they were plealed to have the chart to loolt at. They will choose, in~ of the cases, ca·cegory 1 o.nd. category 2 a uave length Wieh corresponds to something between 4900 and possibly 5300. Most o:r them Yill tall vuy close to 5218 1,.hich is .1bout the color you get whim you have copper saltcs in the Bunsen buner. I cheeked With Dr. Regener on that and asked him if an alloy had been. used, like, eo.y, copper beryllium, U there wollld be any change in th.st hue, and :ie has ~ssured me thei-e would not. He se.id 1t ,fOUld still g1 ve s.wronr.1a· ~ e.ppearonce ot bery1.lilllil copper . . . • • You 'trill find 1n probably 1350 of t:..ie 1500 only the mereat trace of copper occurrence. There are e. few z4eteo:l!"ites like . . . . . in South Dakota, mi.ere 11ttle veins of copper have been toUDil, making up possibly .l~ of 1i. Dr. Bradb.iry: Is this true or all meteorites?
• Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 9 Dr. LaPaz: It O s true in 8JlY' c e.tegory. Even ill the irons, the presence ot copper is very hard to detect, ,re::ey little...... (ditch digger). I don't kn.01, whether you gentlemen could auggest an easy way to obtain green firebull. spect!'a 01" not. Dr. Teller: Wha.t is the geogI'G'.!)hieal solution ot this? Dr. La.Paz~ Ano·t.~.er map trould probably answer that best of a.11. {Lool:ed at more mapa m.th GOl!!e talk that vaa not audible.) Mr. Hoyi coni"ir.ned the green hu.e of the gre fireball he had seen on the night of December 30., 1948. (Reco1·d dead dor minute or tvo.) Mr. lioyt: I would have said approximately as tar above the mountain as tho floor 0£ the val.ley -.ra.a below the top of the mountain. I felt that wuld give me somewhere in the neigblorhood of 20,000 feet or thereabouts. It we.s about 5 minutes to 6, on my '!ray up here. I have a reeling that it had a dmm~d path. ! mean it 'Ira.a going South. Dr. La.Paz: But :~t was not 1Strietly horizontal? Mr. Hoyt: Ro. Dr. LaPaz: We have some discrcpanciea in tbnt regard. 9':/1, or the observa• t1011s indicate a vary nearly horizontal path. One fram Fort Worth, Texas, which im.s not made by ••.•• but meas~d by them, indicateo an elevation o:f 6 degrees st the beginning and 2½ to 3 degrees at the end. Mr. Boyt: That 'n what I would have said, but remember that the ridge wuld give you the senBa-c;ion ·i;hat it was taking a d011Jlll'lU'd path. Duration • e.t the tim~ I wou.ld say it wao approx.ima.tc:ly 3 seconds. Cre:td.'t". Mandelkorn: How does the calculated velocity ot thsse objects compare vith the known velocity o~mcte~rites? Dr. J'..a.Pa~: Appal'ently ver-y much lower; that 1s,· more tban the ordina.r1ly observed r.ceteorit;e falls. Fin.it., to observe in the cast of an actual meteor!te :tall you have a relatio-A o~ ·~e velocity from the auricle ot ..... atmoaphere down to the 1mpaet velocity which may be very ..... but it isn't fair to compare the velocity of the green fireballs to the impact velocity of •••••• (ditch digger and. everyone t.al1ting at once) ....... Bot v1th the trajectory veloci'!;~r of the meteor!te wW.ch is the same as the velocity of the f~nts thc.t fel.l i"ram th-? meteorite. After a meteor! te . . . . . the :f'rag!'llent fall about like a bam'b. The1.r resiste.n.ce just about balances out the . • • . • and as e. result, they come dovn vt·Gh about the velocity ot a felling bmib, e. 11t·~le less beea.uae thoy do not have the 8&me ballistic coefficient. Dr. Bradbury: This 1e not e.n e;£cludecJ. ? direction like the ..... ?• Confcrcn~e on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 10 Dr. LePaz: Due to the foct th:lt they have curve, and p:roctically all. ti!tes during vhich de.rlmeos is with us, why they tend to come in f'ram that direc - tion.... Dr. Br~~hury: Uould it be a t'houer? Dr. IsPo.t.: That wao my tirat el:!)lanat1on, as a Jlltltter of fact. Geminate sh0r.-ers 111th o rnax:trme of Deceober 10 to December 12. The i"ir ~ evidence that I had 1.~r Sgt. Kinaley'o report on De~ember 2 and oinco often the torenumers or the ol~-era will • • • • • I thought ve were t6lking about Geminate ehoirero except ttat I never obacrvcd a green Ge::nina.te. Mttcr of fnct, e. check of obr,c1'Vationo made at tha.t t e found that there uere 414. observations eince 19-5 and tb.ero wmi 0 t a single one, Geminate or non-Gcninate, for Which any hue of f3Ieen was ucmtio.ned. L!lter, for instance on ~ night of December 12, you coul<i ,m.tch the Gem1na.te c~3 dow.. . . . and notice the.t they Cflma 1n at high angles to the horizontal, whereao the green fireballo . . . . . Incidentally, ve hnve onother interesting piece of eVidence thero - Dr. Shel"!D.lll Smith :t'ram tho Utdversity - I mention en .baervation that h made on the came night. ihe tim- of the oboervation is 1n d1 putc. According to Dr. S?Dith it we probCLbly ao late s 10: 50. He bad to wait for a 10118 till:.e, he so.la., for hie vife to pick him up after the concert -ma over. Mrs. Sm!t.h., ho-vever, times it aroUJJd 10:10. Ubntever the time., witllin cm hour or say an hour and n halt after the green fireball e.nd the horizontal path verc ob5ervcd, 11e have another enreme~ bright bla.e f'ireboll CCC!!e out of' the Gcmin:1te re.yo. I mention this beeauoo some of' the f'irnt persons to concern themselves v.Lth this problem suggeut that the green fireballo 1:rere si:m;ply nbnomally bright Oeni.nntee. Apporently you ce.n have "l'ery l.e.rge Gcminate till.ls of the color eotillla.tcd by a trained ..•... checked wtth the opec~ cbar-'.;s •••.. 1c quite diot!mt, I assure you, f'r<Xll the green f'ireball.o. C<Edr. l" ldelkorn: nov good 1a the covera.ge of the oboervers ~ the Americmi Meteor Society cs far o.o the to:p-lw.11 " of the, United Sta.tea is concernedf Dr. LllPaz. It depends a good deal upon overcast conditions. I vould o~, however, that thio year the .t:aetern half ot the country has otter"4 pbenomeml observing conditiono. Ozie of' rr,y reaooru; for vithdraving from Ohio Sto.tc vns that a:fte1· 13 ~o there I had g1ven u_p hope of ever cee:tne a meteorite chower bee uoe during the oeaoon ~ n:sx1mu:m intencity of' the fa.Us w had he:lvy over cact, sr.,0, end oo torth. On the other land, this year they're had rcna011abl.y open ckieE • I have obtained no reports from people 1n the.t part ot the country. 'Pe thought ve had a definitive check bccauae Harvord College has nov installed c. pho'togra!)hic me"b:!or station near or pos ibly inside the Vhite Sanda Pro~"ing Ground. Since the 12th of December, you correct me if I exaggeratf here, uc have been trying to d tel'Ll1ne the color and other cmx-c.cter iGtics of the ten or 12 brighteot meteors ob:..orved at thnt tation. We otill don't knov vhnt they sav. l'1e knov th y were operating and they made ane photogroph.a, but Captain Neef c:m probably tell you the red•t4p0 cbarmellzatiou impediments that hao dropped out any- determina+iozw better then I can.
I Confere:o.ce on AERIAL PBEn'O?SllA Pago 11 Cc.ptc.l.n Neef: i'ell, 1t'o one of those tbinga; it's a llnvy contract and they arc D0t at liberty to divulge tlhat they f'ind, ■o ve hc.ve to go tbrough Waohington, the BureD.u of Ordnmlce., to get the informat ion. Comdr. lbndclkorn: I believe I can get thnt iuf'omation; as a matter of f'e.ct, I feel very certe.in tbat I con. Just a matter ot ~h. Dr. La.Paz: I feel certain if I had contacted Dr. Fred l-1hipple., tor ~le, I could have obtained it, but hin other occ\\!)D,tions keep him away tran that inst.allation. Am. actually I felt as a me iot., it 'Cigb.t vise to have OSI appeal for information re.th.er than to ask tor it directly. C ptain Reef: They did tell uo they weren't using filmu vhich were go1ng to be ausccptible to thooe eoloro. D;;•. Lo.PE.z: But, of course, they o.re mald.na; constant viGUD.l. obcervat1cms and if' you ,1'0%'e able to deter.rd.110 visual. observations 100 mU:ea fran Los Al.tmlos don't reveal the occurrence of bright grean fireballs, I tb1nk it vould be o1snif1cent. I don 4 t lmw vlly they ahould avoid the 60utb.ern-bal:f ot the Bta.te. Comdr. l 3lldelltorn: Let us say if tlwae had been at ~ h1sa cltituaeo, they vou1d hsv~ been v1o1ble fra!!l ffl11te &mds v1 thout mq question. Co.pta.in ee:t: This one or the 30th detin1tely' ve.a Visible tram \-nrlte Sands becauoe CO!i'!tondP.r Holloman 7 and hie v1fe and one ot his ictanto mid his vife 00.V it frooi there. Dr. Le.Po.z: On the otlwr hand., you hc.ve evidence like that ot Prot"eua:,r Talbot ? n.w in chnrge of tho optical trajectory section. daen +.l'l!M'"ft 7 an ~rienced natroDam~r, c. meDber of the Aner1can lleteor Society. I talked u1th him &'bout tbio, o.nrl ho ms observed nothing out ot the ordinary. I don't think o.nybody, I menn in the line of green fir ballo, in this o.rca has been ob erv1Dg • much cs he doee. I don't see ho\!' he could mies 1glrt1.na eo:ne ot theDe. Queotion: 'Wl:lat cx,plt.UlG.tion do )IOU have for thia? Dr. ~: ~c only explanation is the one I save 1n the beglnn!ng smd. had my ea.re pronptly boxed tor. I think these fll'e def'enaiv~ man.oei.-veru ot a higher U s. Comm:i\Dd and th ere practising in the nei~ the regians th,_....,- o.re going to defend, so naturally your localization~ Ugbt neo.r tb.o e.tamc bceb inBtnlle.tions, but boy, cm I scolded tor tllat! ET1lll Dr. Ka.plan of the FAD? teUo t!; no, no, the FAD vould knov all o.bout it, an4 they don't have any facta. Dr. Bradbury: Is this the pb.ys1c1ot Kaplan? Di-. Ls.Pe.z: Yeo. Keplan is my old boss. Be ,ma ch1et ot the operat10Dal. sualyeis oect1on vhtm I vas ••••. director there...... During ltaplan's visit
• Conference on AERIAL PRENOMENA Page 12 to t:1.e uni vers1 ty of Neu Mexico, whert? h\9 was lecturiDS, we call.ed a confer ence Yith Major Godsoe and oth<?r interested. parties. Re ~ve a brief resume of t.~ observations that ha.d b:,en mado to date. Now, Kaplan is one or the charter members of the Americn:n. Iirtteor Sooiety, and he said certainly theee could not be conventional meteorite fe.11s. Re, of course, mentioned as other p <"' :,,h. do ub,o have not gone into it more thoroughly, the poeeibility of abnormal types o:f meteorite falls, tb.Bt misht come in trom a peculiar direc• tiOil or m1.ght droop at very l01r1 level, but I don't think he was able to ex:i>lain the absence ot sound. Dr. Teller: Did I und rstand you cor,:ectly that the velocity ot the object appears to be some 50 kilometers per second? Dr. Lo.Paz: No. In the case of the green i>ireballe sanething between 3 miles per second ond 12 miles per eecond. l)epeM.ing, you see, it you choose one ruled map or another. For exnnrple, let me illustrate how that aff"ects the velocity cleterm:l.nat1on. This is the one I th1nk poesibl7 best repre11ents the observations of the case ot the fireball of December 12. That is the pat~ I assu:ne the Los Alamos observers sav the same point of the curves that the Starvation Peak observers d1d, likevioe to the point ot disappearance. It we deny that possibility, the pathmipt shorten to this dotted Une. (Dr. LaPaz worked on maps .. ..ri~i.h Dr. Teller, explaining paths.) Drappillg from 25 to eome• thing betveen ll and 12 miles. The January .30 observation gave us our first long path. Dr. Teller: J!ow long was it? Dr. La.Paz: The firet observatio~ we bad here indicated . . . . • That vss 'because of errors in the deter.llina.t1on ot the azimuth at t.b.e point of begin• ning, made due to the faulty transit they used. But that's correct that the path runs aver 100 miles. Dr. Teller: And how long does it take? Dr. La.Paz: Duration estimatec range t'rom 5 to around 14 secon.do . I think that a 10 second av-era&re is about the beat, that vould give about 10 miles per second. Dr. Bradbury: Green ie not an unknOffl'l. color in meteors! Dr. LaPa.z: If I were to rewrite the report that I first presented on that 8\lb ject, instead of oa.ying "re.rely observed 0 tbis color green, I think I woul4 DOY ea.y "never observed". You sometimes see green, Dr. ·Bradbury, but it 1a a blue green. The blue ♦-g?"een color. ie rare., but it ie observed. Por instance, Dr. Shem.an Smith 9 s observation wae essentially a blue-green, but on the bluo side. Dr. Bradbury: What other colon do you see 1n meteors?
• Confe1·ence on AERIJ\.L PBENOMENA Page 13 Dr. :ta.Paz: mu tee chiefly. If' you look closely snd Yithout interference 'from outside liglrts, yellmrs, oranges and reds. Dr. :era.clbury: But it's apparently a yellowish-green we 9 re t.a.1k1ng G.bout here. If you can eee a bluish-green, you can aleo a,ee yellows and whites. Dr. laPaz: '!here is some defect, possibly in the vision, that %'8qu1ree a pretty high intensity in that yellow-green before it 9 s uoUd 1n a meteor fall. Dr. Bradbury: Looks like greenCZ Dr. LaI'az: Yes it does, that 0 s perfectly true. Now here's a peculiar property of thoae yellov.-gr"en fireballs - same people vill ref'er to them as red. The only exple..ne .tion that I can tbillk of is they report afterwards that they m:e what ~a@ exposure to a very green-blUioh light i"ather thnn -the Ugb.t itself• I donit lm.ov if that 1s correct. And, incidentally, due to your observation, I don qt kno\-r how to explain the ina.bility of meteor 9baervers to report this :;.-enega.d color, but, I eim;ply know it doesn't occur. You So through long lists, like those of the American Meteor Society, you will tilld, I i.JDaSi.ne, not l 1n 100 where a geen is mentioned. Even in the case of the ? ehowere, were you have largo nUinbera of very brigt.t colors• let me recall eooiething that allot you must have seen. The • • • • • shower of Oetober 9, 1946 - ~ here who so.v that? '!'here veN large numbers ot e:.ctremelJ bright fireball.a at that ti?r.e. 0 Kaplan himaelf' recalled that they were blue, maybe blus•sreen, but never yellow green. And I observ~d those und.er very to.vorable circumstances - ve were ny1ns a.t about 20.,000 f et in e. B-29. We had no absorption ettecta at ell. They def'ir:ite1Y' did not shov hues or green. Dr. Bradbury: You mentioned the noiae problem also. The noise occurs only when ·the meteot' i tselt blows up, breaks up? D:t•. La.Paz: No, tb&t isn't strictly ·i;rue. You have, in addition to the hollow sound, the normal sound of ~ breaku!) of the • • • • • You have headwind; you're near the path. You get a real ahock; 'to-r 1J1Stance, we have ••••• apparently broken up by that hea.dwave, shock wave, _ in the caee ot the !ford.en County-P'alla. And then from the turbulence and retlections eJ.l the way along the path,~ liill have a. rumbling 'Qbich nyxy endure oot for the matter~ a tenth of a second, bQt for m1nutee, and they~re rw rough. Dr. Bradb"UrY: But these occur fairly close to the tra,Jeetory? Dr. Le.Paz: Ro. In the case ot ~ Norden County Fells aaa,n, they were heard clear doim to . . . . . City. •Shakes buildings that rar away. The •••• o Pe.Us were> heard up to 300 miles from the point ot 1-()act. Dr. ~48.dbury: Large number of observations ••.••.. Dr. LaPa.z: Bo, the.re again I checked very care:tw.ly because I we concerned. I am trying desp<erately to give e. logical explanation to the abaence ot 8011Dd.
• Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 14 I have found in J~e literature only three cases where no detonations, no rumbl:i.n.gs were i--eported. One of those ic ·i;b.e Belgium. observation in 1855, and I thiuk should be diacoun'tt!d. ~ca:1::se meteorists hardly exieted at that tmo. Some :falls occurred end wre not reported at all. The other two are reasonably receut observations~ one in 1921 end one in 1922. They occurred, hcme•,er, :tn the deep South wheJ•e negroes, I think, were the only observers. Even thcr.?, the 1-1hizzing of the :meteorites as tbey t'ell through the air, waa reyol:-ted. I knm, of no case of an actual meteori~.;e where at least the wh.i.zzill8 of the falling body coming down -th..-rough the air has not been repo~ted. Dr. Braub1..try: •• • •••• ? Dr. LaPnz: t-1eteol•ite i'e.lls, I believe that \faS ·the way you phrased it? In the case or a shooting star, of course, you never bear a thine; because the entire mass is, v~ry kindly, vaporizeci. befoz-c it gets, say, within 50 miles of the earth....... Not only noises, but s.ccompanied by sucb Zl.Oises that persons o:r animnla are really frightened out of' their Wi te. For example, ·m~ h.o.ve a. beau-ti:rul case where 2 horses killed themselves - in the Norden CO\m~y 1''alls ... they rr.ay have been felled by meteoritea I but I cm inclined to think the.G the noi:cle frightened the'Jll until they dashed into a ditch •• . ••• Anim·lls go crazy. Cot1d:,..•. Yiandelkoi..-n: Do you think 1'1~ u:r:.ueual. no fragments are fOUI!d? Dr. La.Paz: I certo.inly do. And I ·think it unusual, not only 1n the caee of the sreen fireballs, but in view or the fac·t tha·i: a greo.t fall, like the . . . . . fall of October 30, 1947 ., 'llhire :ror the first time we detected a bit of the • 1 .uter~st on the ps.rtr. ot the military, '~ere too ve recovered nothing. Oc·oober 30, 19!!-7, about ~:48 in the afternoon there was, what appeared to be, a tr~nendous ~eteorite ~all. over the reaervetion area - the Four Corners Aref1.. We got thel-e m'Ghin a ver-y i'ew hours, had excellent observations, wnt back time 8lld age.in, cxhauated groUild search, CAP people in airplanes, we .bs.d e radio centered, we h.ad radio controlled jeeps and a lot of people out wal,k.. ing around not s. trace. I can't give you a color on that becauoe •••.• O Comdr. Mandelkorn: Ordinarily, when phenomena. of' that nature occur, you are able to recover aome material? Dr. La~.z: Yes, some meterial is recovered almost always. If' proper search is conducted. Ue hav , by the t,ra.y, very ·Gb.orough air search conducted by Gill Field Corps of' Intelligence Unit; Dr. Lansberg ot the Research a:od Developiilent Board, very kindly interested himDelt in the problem and the air seo.rchcra resultea. not even in the discovery of a broken branch. The region ls heavlly forreated. If' branches baO: been broken, I th1nlt tbey would have been det,e:ted.. I baren 1 t claaaified ·i:;hs.t particular fall, however, with the green fireba1le and tor this reason: tbat left a train. Another thing vbich I n.tlsht have mentioned - a non:ial meteorite fall . . . . . ·t-rill produce a lOIIS (:Dtb.zrillg i;rain visible by- ds.y and night. Luminous by night and b;y d&y,
• • Conference on AERIAL PREROMENA Page 15 illuminated by the sun. In tl.\e caee of the irona, it v.lll be very ta.int, bt1t it O ll be there it you lool; for 1t. In the ease of the Four Corners Fail, tlw.t train ,ras obeerved. and I m inclined to believe that it might have been a conventiona.l meteorite fll.ll. In the ca.Be of the green fireballs, to my knouledge, no such train haa been observed.. Tha:;:; question is always asked of people - did you observe a lo:ng enduring train; their replies were al,mys necative. Comdr. Manclelkorn: Then you ,rould say there vere 10 incidents which are a.nalogoua to the green. fireballs, with reports checked by a. sufficient number of in epcnden-t observers, that thdre io no doubt whatsoever of their occurrence? Di-. La.Paz: Tha.t 1 s right. Cc,n:.dr. Mu.nd.elkorn: Then there are ~O with some cleviationa, two of these , prcbably are r~leted to the green fireba.Ue ... . . Dr. Lal'ez: I believe two of those 1J:.c1dents I mentioned occurred before the 5th of December. A very remarkable one of the 4th of August .. note that that again 1s vory close to the titte of . . • . . meteor ohower . . . . . . Fram le.te in July on and my report will be producing qu1te a number of thel!le ........ , but it is p~ically imposeible vith this particul.Ar obaerva.tion tram near .•.... Oregon.•... Dr. Bradbury: Th~n their directions ,rere wrons? Dr. La.Paz: Ao a n-.atter or fact, ve can 1 t tell because they were single oboervatione. Maybe I ehould :pasc th,_t letter around, but it is, I believe, the i"iret detailed report on vhat might be chsracterized as a typical green fireball.. After the Oscar ..... incident of January l, 1948, was merely a remarkable green flo.Gh, ~'hich might have had some other interpretation. (Dr. LaPnz ebowed some letters around the tc.ble., and ~re ,ro.s general talk not able to be picked up ind.1vidually. ) Major Godsoe: The baaic purpose of t.n:1.a meeting is: ve want you to find a meteor! Mr. Hewburger: Have the mili"c.ary - e.ey-one from the National Defense estab liohment - given us ODything? Sent out any coDJectures about this tl:fog? Major God.soe: :No, most o~ the mil1tary a.uthorities think ve are crackpots; that is, except for the Army Air Force, -which is taking an active interest in details. • Mr. Nevburger: The Air Poree does -have the primary interest in this gadget? Major Godsoe: Yes, the Air Force is -~e gathering, reporting agency tor this phG.'D.OOlenon.
Po.ge 16 Conference on AERIAL PEENO Co dr. :.:mdelkorn: Id 11 to remove that temporary sta .. t e.oo t the Armed Foreca Speci l eaponn Proj ct; ire srcn•t lo.ughing •••• (record blank for minute or tYO) • Dr. Bradbury: Rone of ua ~ expe;rts in this field, 110 ,re e oentially he.ve to believe what ve ere told. I CJUiPPOOe if you try to look for logl.co.l CY.pl.alIDtions, there ore probably e. Dr. LaPa.z: I w-ould like to ask. one queetion here - unleea you feed pover into body O'\i ng into a horizontal po.th, can it preserve eseentialJ.y a horizontal. tr jectory? A pls.ne doeo it; ttet oriteo don't do it; show curves na the cnerBY f'olle OJ.f. This thing apparently ignores air resistance and gravity d goev bll &f'ulll on its '78.Y'····•·· •••••• Dr. Teller: s far s stmightnees of the path io concerned, if' you have a netcorite thnt you have obs rved for 10 occondo, and 1n theo 10 seconds 1t ha gone e.diatence of 100 miles, it will have :fallen in th1 distance 1/3 of a mile cn:l now I ould 11 to dtlre any observer to tell a CUI"V3.ture ot thin kind - beco.uoe you are completely UIIprepared tor th ph~n. Dr. LaP z: a it love down, it curvaa toward the bottom. Dr. Teller: But appsrently before it ha.a happened, olOl.-ed doun too much or c ploded or o::ething, HZJd then it hao disni,p2&1"0d- Eov th" •••• point is, of cource, i:P 1t has no po er 1t m.ll sl0l1 clovn, but I do not lmov hOlr quicltly vou .ould have to stimate th.et; furthermore., the rate at 'tlhich it slows down vi.11 depend very much on the question wether it lw.o been st a 10 mile Bltitud~ or a. ,l() mile altitude. Dr. LePaz• Th elevation tm.atea arc very concordant on these, nru1 I doubt t ~-ou vill be eble to change that el.ev tion of 8 to 10 milco by ry much. 'l'hcac ere the real. p th obaerve.tiono that I have nentioned.. Dr. ller: Well, can you y.......do you think ~hing e&1 be mud about t? Dr. Le.Paz: I doubt it. Th eye, of cou.roe, ia not a sood. opeedameter. You cnn t det ct a chrulge. At 1 st, I did not 1n the one observation that I e, 8ll.d no Gu.ch clmnge has been reported. ln the case of those \1ho observed the green f'ireballa, o y that neor the end o~· the Texna tirebsl.l po.th of January 30 1t w.s noted that the f'reoients moved out leiaurely to the point t which there pp{\l'e?ltly l.cs velocity, a.u eh.ow by them on the green fireball it£el.f. y I mention, hmrever, thc.t 1n the case of the normal I:1eteorite foll that curvature in the path, the traru;ver e verticol., ia one of the aoet ai,pm-ent. You ace that 1n the ceoe of~ larBe, ordinary detonation fireball tall even though it y not produce . . . . . there 1e e. tendency to curve. Dr. Teller· What !1:bout total l1gbt.... Hov doe!) the brishtne c C0:lip8.l"'e to the br ghtn aa of the meteoritea that co tro:n a moteortConf'e:rence on AERIAL Pml:NC>MENA Pagc 17 Dr. L~.Paz: To. tbe case of the Texa.a fall., thie is very rough; I didn't see i ·c, I can only bs.se an estimate eey on the comparisons that -were made with the moon e.o to size and total intensity. In the case of the Texao fal.l it 'li'Ould certainly be com:puable to - it va.s one of the brightest observed f:treballs ia ·t;otal. intenuity . . . . In the case o:f the Sto.rvation Peak incident, we can compare it w"lth Vemis which was conveniently located, e.nd 1t eert.'3.inl.y ,,as or l'Jtellar mae,uitude minus 4., possibly a little brighter. That comparison was ?Dade aJ..,.zoct immediately after the obs~rvation. . .... Mr. Hoyt: It ws very bright a.nd clee.r that night. Dr. Teller: You saw it at 6 o'clock? Mr. Boyt: At five minu·tea to eix. Very, ve_ry clear that night. (ciitc;h digger., in between ditcn digger, a. tw coherent remsrks:) Dr..Hanley: In 1945 or 1946 I observed practically the same thing ao in this le·tter. We thought it vas a roman candlo. Definitely light green in color. I am still 1;,crried about the fact that they don't report ~ green color 1n these :tallE. Dr. Bred.bury: Lack ot noise, lack of .... , the lack of these things wOUld be . qually astounding for o.rry Jllaterial object....•. Dr. LaPa.z: Dr. Kapl.E.n suggested the poas1bil1ty or the same sort of phenanenon that he cculd produce experimentally in hio laboratory . • . • snd he tells me tmder certs.in eonditions he can produc-e a globe or lamps of yellOT-Jisb.--e;reen light • . . • . He conjectured ~or a m1nt.te that that might have eome rele.ti011 • an artificial aurora. Comdr. M:llldclkorn: As long &s you brought that up, MaJ. Johnson bao a letter I obtained from Gen. Bunker vhich ma,y be pertinent. Gen. Bunker transmitted the inf'ormation you•ve heard to the Air Materiel. Carmnand, and in reply received n letter f'rom e.n Air Force General vho recently returned tran AlD.eka. I'll let Dr. Le.Paz read this. Dr. LaPaz: This ia closely related to 'What I was talking about. It begins: "Dear Bunker: Received your interesting phenanena 0'f l. J'ebruary and p:romptly turned it over to Boward . . . . now eaddled. v1 th the responsib1lity of clues. Regard. as coiucidentol. that on dates JOU mention Gen. Carroll vas in Fairbanks, AJ.ook;a., and on his return r-el&.ted tbat he bad never seen be:tore in his lite such a beautitul technical dieplay of Wa:rthern Lights. I~e v.aat these people have seen ie a reflection fra-.i the •••• ~ these pyro technics. So -ra.r ais we know., it ie etill phenomena and not ma:torial. Best Regards~ Paul".
Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 18 Dr. LaPe.z: J'..ay I mske the observation t-hat if you look in the chapter by .••.• , you~ll find that in Alaska where this observation was reported, there are very few times s.t this season of the year 't.,hen you can•t see an 11urora. Dr. Teller: I have the feeling that it is . o.. eith.er a discovery in physical psychology or ..... Dr. La.Paz: I thought that psychol.ogical element ,101,.wl come in here! Dr. Telle:;:-: Here is a slightly irrelevant question - you brought 1n the fly ing discs. What is the connection? Dr.. La.P~-~: I didn~t bring in the flying discs. Mr. neuburger: I brought in t.he matter ot the f'lying discs because the Air Force, a.a I tmderstand, now have claesed the flying d1sos and these fireballs into one category. Captain Neef: •... The ODl.y indication we be.ve is a l.etter from MAC in Waohington Saturday where they indica.tGd the old project Sign is ~ project Grudgo, which includes the phenome:oa observed in Rew Mexico. They knew or tbis meeting and were ~oing to send a represcm.tative. Dr. L&Paz: I Just asked Mr. Hoyt a moment o.go how he would c<Dp&re the br1ll.ence of this obJect with that of an aircra.t't f'lare. Be said they were of comparabl.e ~tu.de. I think that was def'initely ruled out .•.•. Dr. Teller: I Wlderstood that e. reasonable explanation of the flyag discs - alld I suppose ·chat it ie generally know - is that they ar& meteorological balloons••••• I underste.nd that in quite a number of cases there have been vecy close directions established. . . . . . I mwrt say that ~ram what you have t5e.id, it certs.inly sounds like eveeytbing el.ee but meteors. The th1zlg that impresses 1D.Q 1s your evidence of the horizontal flight. Meteors do not uaual.ly come in like that..... . (mumbled tel.k be-tween Drs. Bradbury and Teller) Cap·l.ain If f: ...... Change of direction such that ve haven't en abl.e to follov 1t up yet. One of our men vus returnuag Sumay night vhen our tover operator aav this object to the Southwest from Kirtland Field am .... Arizona reported it was Southeast from them. F'rom. the ltirtland tover it was a bronze color. The time checlta, but frcn .•.. Arizona it w.s green until it turned straight down and ve·e-rea. Soina , . . • Dr. LaPaz: Dr. Teller, mq I mention this one other instance that ebcnrs maybe ,my I have more concern than is lilerited by the evidence I am able to present. I deal Yi.th Vic Regener and I knov that the physicist doesn't like to work vitb anything that ca.nit be photographed. I share that view but a meteorist is not available s~times to photograph shooting stars, even the conventional type. Durillg the war I vna acting as Director of the Ohio Section
Conference on AERIAL PBFJ.q<L:lENA Paae 19 of ·the American Moteor Society and s1l at once we began -oo get reports of large n1.llllbe1•a of stntiomry fireballs; not moving. The burst was there, but no motion. Now one \.'ho observes normal conventional fireball falls is aware of the fc.ct that not lout of say 500 shove actual fixity; there io always motion. So, thiG looks very, very strang • Of course, you all kno't1 what those stationary fireballs turned out to be. They v~re the self-destructive devices on Japanese paper balloona ope:raung. You bad a. ~gen filled sphere vi.th a tw•cro,m raaak of magnesium flash•lisht powder. ADd. when the ma.gnesium and the hydrogen uent off tcsether, you could 13ee it tor a long way. We got stationary fireballo but they certainly wel"e not meteoritic. My experience since I w.e auopected of psychological apparitions at the tilna I reported the3e s-ce.t:lona.ry fireballs to, tor example, Dr. Kamplan, my experience vith .... led me to be very cautious e.bout tak:lng '1lfY concern ..••. but at the seine time I feel that we shouldn't be -too hasty in gl.viDg a natural e.xple.nation to thece green f1reballs. Dr. Teller: ..... but I vould lik~ to ask, these phenomena a.re a:pparently quite bright, more luminous than normal meteorites7 Dr. La.Paz: Well., the .1ElllU!!l"Y' 30th o}le wo; I vouldJ;l.•t say 1,hat a.bout the one I eaw on December 12.. 'lila.t wne a very bright fireball., but not extraordinai:1.ly so. Dr. Tell~r: What is the chance of' get•ting pictur~a? Dr. LaPaz.: I rafer tp the one at't~t that was made on the night of December 19. We set up a pho·togra.phic patrol - the AESS, as you. probably ltnow, has been interest~ in this prqblem. ·They brou3ht a lot of sp0Cd graphics and so on a.nd set th~ up. Mr. t~ll, a member of the group .•.. , and they vere able, I th1Dk ~ night before., to photograph a. bright <Jem:lnate. But on the night af the 19th nothing we observed. The ne:tt night, however., the night of the 20th there tme an iuciclffllt which I bel.ieve might have been photographed, but by that time th~ equipment had been diesbanded and nothing w.o obtained. I chOuld think., with pN~r coverage, say 10 to l'JI,, of these should record themselves provided you do not Uf.le ~en insensitive • . • . and film such as th3 •••• Dr. Teller: Is the~ any possibility of having a wide coverage ot the sky tr-lggered 'by a pboto cell 'f Dr. La.Paz: I have 9-iscussed t.bat, for eDm!)le vith Dr. Reneger., who has been very much interested i:a the apparatus, and bis answer is more or leas 1n the negative. I uDd.er(Jtand that Cornell Un1versit;y • Ge.rtline o.f Cornell .. baa p1'0duced some sort ot p.hoto-ele~tric tngger1Dg device ~ch bas been used in t):rl.s co:o:nection. I wrote him about it, asking tor reprints or 1nstnICt1one, but neve~ received a reply. Question: Do you think ,-011 are going to find film eeJlGitiw to this gre~ color fast en.ought We have sane that can't b lef-t out over 12 hours...••
Conference on AERIAL PBENOMENA Page 20 Dr. La.Po.z: It should be possible ..... The cO?tVentiona.l meteor cannot be :photogr :phed. e.t t.he pre~ent time. The so-called met.eorecbmitts that Harvard College .ts nou having produced at verJ great expense, they expect to go down to the 4th and poaeib~ fa.inter. l1ith one of those, a bright green :fii-eball might be photographed, but they are not o.vaile.ble•.••.. Ml!. Devburger: Does a.nybody knov if ·chere were any experiments ce.rried out in Europe, prior to th',! w.r when our la.st beat information CGme tram over there, al.pug this line? Dr. La.Paz: Not tom::, knovledge. I raised that question with Dr. Kapl.e.n and he gave me 8Qme? :rather arurprising information. DJ:. Kaplan had atteDded. the IAU meetings in Syria ? and the Russians had a large repres tation there. Sm:"ficiently large, as a matter ot :te.ct, to beat dam the proposal that the IAU appoint an international camnittee to investigate the so...called ••.•• meteorite crater procluced in the fall ot 1947, 1"ebrua.ry 12. On the contrary, at ·the Oswsl.d, I think it w.o, conference ot the International Geophysical Union, none of the Russian geoph;teie1sts vere present. Kaplan'a interpreta tion was that they feel ao far ahead ot us that they d1cm•t t.bink they oould 1 am anything, and they were taking the precaution that no leak occurred. . • Mr. Nwburger: Were the GemaM ex,periment11l8 1n UN phase tbat vas poaa1bcy cozmected with it? Dr. LePaz: "I-ell, t'lle'.Y had the ao•ce.J..J.ed otation.e in apace ••••• might have some attachment to it. Comdr. Mandelkorn: You don't he.ve any record of ~nma.nts. Dr. LaFa.a: Bo, no Jmowl~ of exporimenta•••••• I have the belief tllat no country in t world has thqre b~cn meteoritics developed a~ it has in Ruoeia in .,"eee:L"t years. Recently, -the AcRdeny of Science of' the USRR has bf:en issuing a so-called met~ritic, an eztraQ?!'d1nery publication - very little work of the ca.liber being ~ ~ the Russians he.& been conducted in the United States. Apparen·cly, there 1 t has big liN,P.POrt; hen, 1t is c.n 1ndiv:td\181 matter. UntU we had some milltcry interest in meteori~ictJ, ve vere DeVer able to :round even an institute ill moteor1t1cs in the unite'1. States. The one 1n New Moxico is an out51"mrth of application of meteoritics to determine, sq. ballistic eoetticients ror shells ot unconventional .design like the p1'0Z1m1ty tuze shell w1 tb the radio 1n its nose, 811d that sort ot thing.' 'l'hat 0 s vb.ere wie got a s~. Apparentl.7., "he Ruasians got that ~ller and have f'ull..fledged st&~ eupport. Dr~ BoUO'U'&y: Bov much interest would the mil:l.tary have if tbey found out these 1ili,nge vere lancU.ng all over ~ country, Cerllda., Bava11., ~tc.? ..... Have you contact6d peopl.e in the East 1 Dr. La.Paz: Olivia, C. C. Olivio., President of the Amerie&11 Meteor Society, Ki~, Leone.rd , Pruitt, Xapl.an, tc. MQet o£ them have been obsem.ns ; Kaplan, I 1.!uagi.ne, bas not, 'because h~ is JJOW preocc'1,Pied vi.th labo.ra.tory . .
, . Page 21. Conf'erenee on AERIAL PHENOMENA el.."P~r1litents. I think that if anyone o~ the UCLA Institute of Geoph;ye1cs had b~n observing., it wuld have gotten to Kaplan's ears..•.•• There are two great advantages ·i;o this area: 'f1rat, you have clear skies at night and can observe them as they come dawn., and second, (record blank tor minute or two). Dr. Hollm,ay: ..... this 'W8.8 before the war. They bad a tel.ephone network which covered a fair section ot the Eaat there. • •••• o. network so that your obeervatione . . . . . mention indicate, k:noY wat he I this to I don is doi,g Qt now, but at least they- may ~ve a group ot people who ba:tte been observing. May uot be in a position to . . . . . green fireballs, but the7 might have seen them. Dr. LaPaz: My one attempt to contact . •... arid. unfortunately I did not approach b1m age.in for 1ntormat1on, but someone acquainted vith him should certainl.y ask~ they have observed any of this sort ot thing tbe~. Comdr. Mandelkorn: Well, wouldn't phenomena or this nature have been reported to tho Society, no ~tter where they had occurred? Dr. L&Paz: Yeo, l would think so. For exampl, you can consult the so-called meteor notes of the Amer"tcan Meteor Society, and popular aetronotQy, they are published from mo~th tp month with the President, c. C. Olivia, Director ot the Florida Ob. rvatory at the University of Pennsylvania. I've been through those very caretulJ.y. Tb.er 1 8 one single solitary case of a fireball which by one ot the observers - a doubly observed fireball - 80 it was possible for me to .... which one of the obeervora mentions a green color. Bot this peculiar in yellow-green vbich moat people in that vork find unusual, and in the ea.se of that the elevation determined is of the order of, ob 199 kilometers from the beginning point and rqushl¥ 100-tor the end, so I th1Jlk it is only an ordi.IID.ry fireball; nothing unusual about it. Tb.at was the only caee I found. Comdr. Mandel.koru: Aocording to recent records, where the observation c~- tions in other parts or the country satisf'actory? At least part of the time? Dr. LaPar; Well, I infer tram the fact that ve bav" had so much trouble out here and the Eut has been bra.gging about its cllmatic ad.vantages, tbat probably during the recent month.a, thq have had good observancy. I haven"t attempted a full eeale check on that. Comdr. Mandelkorn: Le~•s put it thie var then: lave there been a au:tticient nmuber ot f'1reballs reported in the last: 60 days 1n other parte ot the country to lead us to 1nf'er that bad some ot these occurred, they would have been reported? Dr. LaP&z: I think that definitely 1e true. 'lo 'llJ:f knowledge, aa far as the contacts JJve had with Olivia and so on, there wae uotbing out ot the nomal noticed in the East, and in the South, ~hall ve aay as tar~ &$ White Sanda. Whether the H&l.-vard Obeervatory aetup observed arqth1Dg peculiar or not, I don~t know. we tried away to get utormat1on. We ver.e by right tbat tolcl the gentleman in cbarge down there, 1 1 m sure this Vill be interest to you, that
. . • • Conference on AERIAL PBENOMl!l1'A Page 22 it ,-,as 1mposaible to make an estimate of the approximate wave and engatroms without detailed spectroscopic equipment, wich he did not possess. So whether the Captain e.otually cut out the spectrum charts and sent them to him or not, I don't know, but it was considered. Dr. Bn.dbury: W~ll, we're not COJD1J38 up vith ~ bright ideas for you very fast. Mr. Nevburger: 1'o, but a.a long as we .have the problem presented to you, maybe by ·thinking on thia, you will cane up w;i.th an idea! . . . . . Of course, you knov our entire connection _ m th started vith Madelyn Gwynn Merchant back in 1946! Dr. Le.Paz: Except 'for the flying discs, nothing tbat you could se.y ,rould cause m greater embarrassment! I have actually had conmun1cat1ons from Madelyn myself'. Dr. Teller: Your statement of' the absence of sound when this thing has gone apparently overhead at the distance of 10 miles, within earshot ot people. Dr. LaPaz: '!'hat seems 1ncomprehens1ble, doesn't 1t, Dr. Teller? I'm glad to hear you say that because that has been my teellng tram the begimu.ns . And we tried desperately to get confirming evidence ,menever sounds were men.. tioned. No reports ~ve been obtained. Dr. Teller: I must say that the admission in ffllich one could get •o•• typicel phenomenon 1 s aamethiDg in the light of .... Dr. LaPaz: Kap~ told me be was going to get out one ot bis old blov preBeure tubes and begin experimenting as soon ae he returned from the UCLA, to see it he could duplicate in any wa;r the descriptions we have g1 ven him. Dr. Hollovay: What sound does a. P-.2 make when it goes overhead? Dr. LaPaz: I can tell you vb.at t!,.ey make when th~y came ~ - Comdr. Man~lkorn: I can tell you *t they make when they go overhead at the height of about 1,000 yards. But anythu>g man-made that passes overhead at the heigltt ot 8•10 miles, at this ap~ed, could be inaudible. Dr. Teller: You think it could be? Comdr. Ma.ndelkorn: I think 1t could b~. 'lb.e only . Dr. Tf:ller: Even it it went at the speed. ot 10 m11,s pe2: eecond't Comdr. MBndel.korn: Well, Dr. Teller: You see, at that time, the ..... begins to c01111e up. Dr. La.Pa&: You bet it does.
• :------ • Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 23 Dr.. l3radbury: ..... Dr . Teller : You have to get a shock \18.Ve out ot it. W1th a very t.miaJ.l object the shock uave Vl?uld be emaller tban .. • . I ba.ve not .made colcula.tiona on it, but it 0 s just common sense ... . • Dr. Le.Paz: I 1t-ould like to ask a question. Ien 8 t it true in the case ot t oo- called light movement that you have very intense, luminous effects off tbem vithout noi~'l ( talk between Drs. Bradbury and La.Pa!. too taot and too jumbled to be traniscribed.) Comdr. Mandelkorn: From what Dr. Tell r said apparently a solid object eon• ver ging with the atmosphere horizon·tally at o.bout 8 to 10 miles e.ltitude, 1t vs i ner dible that it wouldn 9 t be accompanied by eome sort ot sonie phenomenon. Dr. Teller! I w-ould like to repeat that to try to get sn estimate ot the si~~ of the object, 'that it would have to have in order to get sound effects, 1e not an easy thing, but offhand I WPul.tl. a~ - this ie wtiat I -woulcl. e.xpoct - that you get a very small object, ,-a small as an inch or BDla4ler. Dr. LaPaz: . .... Dr. Teller: If I ral}elllber correctly, the :..ntensity, th~ amount of energy thnt goes into a ohock wave is proportio~ to th square of the velocity. The vel ocity tbat you have here proporti'onal to the square of the velocity and, of QOurse, is proport1.Qnal I sbould think probably to th' square ot the linear dimensions of the obJect tha't you bav~. Nov you hf;Lve 10 miles per eecond • •• velocity you have 20 vdles per second~ AO this could be, on that count, ten ·t;~es fainter .. t.be sound would be ten times fainter. OD the o\lM!r band, a m eteor1te that you· will hear, I think, . • • • . that much across J •• •• • l ( too much cross ta.lk) Dr. Teller: That i~ something we c0uld do right away. 1'ov I do not know, tried to get from you information on brightness, but I would like to ask again some details ..• o • Dr. l,aPaz: The brightest meteo;-1te tall 1n bistory, of Vhich ve have historioal. record, vae tbe .~. fall 1n 19()8, ~ 20 •••• est'-2na.tes the power, the light power, of' that .was ot the order of 101 • 1019 ergs w aecOlld. In the case of the Texas fall it wao prQbably not 100,0001;h as bright.
• • ., Conference on AERIAL PHENOMENA Page 24 Dr. Teller: Nov let • s try to get a check ot thie. (Dr. TelJ..er then spent approximately the next twenty minutes or so figuring on the blackboard - estimating light, apeed, kinetic energy, shock wave, etc.) Dr. ':reller: If' I can just believe ev~rything I have hel.U'd and put it together w1th vb.at I theoretically believe in, 1t ought to be a material body • might be an electron. phenomenon. Dr. La'?az: You eee why rm puzzled, Dr. Teller. Nothing like this, to my knowledge, ha.a ever been observed in the case of meteorite drops. nr. Teller: It you go to a group like UCLA or sane other place where they have a good eoUDd laboratory, they ought to be able to take the a.boence of sound observations - that ie definitely incompatible, assuming that you know tb.e.t there are .o. and assuming that they have heard no sound from this, they ought to be ab:te to work an upper range upon the dgbt of the object which has been moving, end f'rom these figures I would be inclined to believe the obJeet could probably not have a heat 'lot something ' like l cubic centimeter. One centimeter in dimension, and that in turn would not have given the blinding effect, if it vas a material object. Dr. Bradbury: Wait a minute, I think you gve lett out something in light effects - you don't have to worry about kinetic energy. You can get your light from chemicals as well. Dr. Teller: That is correct. .. ........ Mr. Nevburger: This seemo to vind up the meeting. Dr. Bradbury: St1.ll don¥t feel tbat the meteor stuft is out. The puzzling thing is the long horizontal path; also, absence of noise is puzzling. hgc