DISCLOSURE / FILE
Segment 1 of 2 of the Apollo 14 post-mission crew debriefing at the Manned Spacecraft Center in Houston, transcribing crew and debriefer discussion of in-flight food, biomedical sensor failures, sleep, and (per the release framing) the cosmic-ray 'light flash phenomena.'
NASA-UAP-D026, Apollo 14 Debriefing, 1971
Segment 1 of 2 of the Apollo 14 post-mission crew debriefing at the Manned Spacecraft Center in Houston, transcribing crew and debriefer discussion of in-flight food, biomedical sensor failures, sleep, and (per the release framing) the cosmic-ray 'light flash phenomena.'
NASA's Apollo 14 crew debriefing was recorded February 18, 1971 at the Manned Spacecraft Center (now Johnson Space Center) in Houston, Texas, and this file holds the first of two segments. The extractable transcript covers in-flight appetite and weight loss, drink-bag and food-packaging problems, repeated biomedical harness and EKG sensor dropouts and their in-flight fixes, and broken, unsatisfying sleep in the couch and lunar module. The release describes the debriefing's central 'light flash phenomena' discussion, the now well-documented effect of high-energy cosmic rays striking the retina, with the debriefing continuing in NASA-UAP-D027. The transcript pages provided here do not contain the light-flash exchange itself; that material sits in the omitted or overlapping portions.
We ran completely out of these bite sized packages you know and to me that was the best the best thing we had.p.2043
There we had data, and we went back to the MSOB from the firing room to catch that pass, and there you were, it was beautiful, just as if nothing had ever happened.p.2276
But in my case, I felt very strongly that I was on reserves, that physically I was going downhill.p.2888
But sleeping to me was a very insecure experience.p.2910
It was really a pleasant experience to be in zero-g during the daytime, I thought.p.2936
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>> You're coming through loud and clear.
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>> You're coming through loud and clear.
>> Okay, I guess we can.
>> 20 mics.
>> One for you.
>> What mics do we need?
>> Good morning, Charles.
>> Hello.
>> How are you?
>> Fine.
>> How are you?
>> Fine.
>> Good.
>> Terrify.
>> Good.
>> Yeah, we tried to go through this, you know, your debrief last night, the printed one,
you know, this all the stuff that you guys did on tape, your tech debrief, to get those
so that we try and not repeat, you know, only amplified stuff, and so we try to come
up in much time to do that, but I hope we've got most of that stuff.
>> Okay.
>> And if you think we're hitting some area that you think, you know, as a conflict with
that, we'll yell, tell us, and we'll change it around.
And some of the things, now there were some things that you guys said yesterday, you know,
when I was in the project, you briefly, that probably bear on some of these, too.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning, man.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
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>> Good morning.
Good morning.
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>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
Good morning.
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>> Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
>> Good morning.
Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
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Good morning.
Good morning.
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Good morning.
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Good morning.
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>> Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
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>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
Good morning.
>> Good morning.
Good morning.
>> Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
>> Good morning.
>> Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
Good morning.
I would say the answer to your question would be yes that I ate more when they were in there, but the idea of people being together is nothing
in that.
It's a time factor.
During the coast phase you have more time to worry about eating.
During the urban phase I didn't have any time at all and any extra time and particularly with the troubleshooting the icon and so forth.
So I didn't have the inclination or want to go to the trouble of trying to mix up a meal as such.
And I didn't much like that going to all that trouble anyway so I opened up the chicken salad I think it was and I had that for breakfast and then a wet pack and that's the type of food you can really get to in a hurry and eat.
So I wouldn't say overall that probably ended up eating too much less but it was a little different rather than sitting down and mixing up a rehydratable pack and so forth.
So the total amount you don't think was any different because you're there but it was just different kinds of food.
It may have been a little less and better.
Do you personally feel that you know the weight loss is involved here?
You know that you've got one pound each year and you've got a ten pound one and I heard your comment about the scale yesterday too.
But do you have any personal reason why you think there's that much different weight loss?
I mean as you know that you personally try to account for it other than food intake, water intake or anything of that sort of.
No, I'm not sure that there's anything magic about zero G or the fly. I would suspect I'd probably lost several pounds if I had eaten that same menu and sat right here.
I probably think that I was certain pounds overweight when I went into the flight as a matter of fact.
You know I'm not a big eater and during most of the time you come up on training I drink a can of sago and a can of eggs for breakfast.
And then I eat a sandwich for lunch and maybe drink two or three cans of beer and eat a sandwich and eat them.
You know I can go four days on a menu like that and I don't know how many calories all that adds up to but you know it's not really a high calorie diet.
And I would say that that pretty much was my diet for three months prior to going into quarantine was just about what I what I stated there.
And then when we got into quarantine or then I started eating more for breakfast and eating a bigger meal in the evening.
And so I think I probably was three or four pounds heavy going in going into the flight. And so I I think the weight loss may be overplayed a little bit because I think I had a few extra pounds and then plus I don't think that maybe we picked the right
the right weight up on the on the rolling scales. But that's neither here nor there you know what.
Well we can probably show you something about that from when we get your lab mature pull together I think we'd be able to give you a better handle on that as to whether you know it really was something that had to do with the zero G state or not.
We hope we'll be able to do that.
I'd like to just add a general comment which I think reflects the consensus of the three of us that with respect to the food in general the type of food, the method by which it was packaged and so on.
And the degree to which we like it just like it was primarily a function of the level of activity in the flight plan.
But the business of going into the pantry and taking time to select foods and drinks and so on. It's fine during the quiet periods of course that things like.
Like spoon spoon packages are good level of activities not too high but certainly the level of activity is high.
The web packs and the cans and that's about all you want to take time for with.
I think this is a general comment that really reflects our consensus. It was a time consuming part of the day to prepare meals, get them out of the food box, get them all laid out, cut all the tops off and get all the water into them, get them the size.
Get the pill back in there with you through. It's an effort and it's a lot easier to open up a can and a wet pack and then you think it's a lot of trouble to mix up the juice.
But in that way you got your meal and you're through and you're on your way.
The cooking problem quotes is still a problem which has been fairly common I guess.
But I would say in my case that watching these guys eat they went right down the menu and so I thought I really should do that but I just didn't have inflammation to eat that much.
Even though you're knowing your own mind how you got to do this you got to keep yourself just as much as you possibly can.
I just couldn't get around to doing it. In fact several times I'd mix the food up and then by the time I'd eat a couple packages I just couldn't get to the third package so I'd put it back in the pantry.
Well Stu one of the things that's going to come out of that is somebody you know reading the the the breathing itself. The obvious question comes up okay was your lack of appetite itself was it just plain lack of appetite or did you really have any any discomfort as far as a goat was concerned at all.
Anything that you felt was pathological in your loss of appetite due to the environment or anything. No no I don't think there's anything in that.
I could say I think it boils down to a lot of just too much food you know you bundle up one of those meals and there's just too much there to eat.
Were any of you ever thirsty in flight. You were dry. You were dry quite a bit you know you'd have a sensation of dryness and you'd want in water you know juice would make you want some wine.
Did you while we're at it we might just wipe out the water. Did you guys drink the water in your suits.
Did you drink all it is I just drank a lot of food.
On the first one I don't know how much of mine I drank I thought I ate the bag but apparently the walls of the bag got around the drink tube and I didn't get it all out because it drained down around my neck during the sleep period.
I had a leaky one also when I took out two EBA's. Okay did you fill them up again then when you went out second you know and you drank about you think you drank about a 30 years both times.
I'd say yeah I didn't really stop and drink too much. Yeah and I drank all mine in the second EVA and I can't remember whether I drank it all or not if I didn't there may be some still in it.
Okay all right and one other comment on what we're on there eating far forget it.
We ran completely out of these bite sized packages you know and to me that was the best the best thing we had.
These little you know turkey sandwiches, cheese sandwiches and that sort of thing.
Because that was a no sweat operation you just clip that off in a can of juice and you could go at it so I really like those and I ate all those generally that I could get my hands on and we ran out of dough.
Well we ran out of books everything else too just about it.
No not really I had all kinds of food.
If I may make a comment to the mind about what he said eating and ringing happens.
This flight plan is really something that he worked on to develop before the flight.
It's a busy flight plan. It's a full one and it was my impression that he was more interested in being sure that the flight plan was done properly than the needy.
Oh yeah.
I think that affected it to a great degree which again gets back to the level of activity versus the.
You guys can get a little, for example those drink bags, get a little diaphragm on the end.
Just stick over a needle and pump the water in that way and shake it up, pull the plug out and break it out of the same deal.
That would be a lot easier for those drinks.
For the juices and things you mean.
Oh cutting.
Yeah so that you don't end up having to sort of feel you gotta drink the whole damn thing once you get it done.
You see you got a drink bag and you got a little gnarled thing it's all sucked into plastic and it's all pulled down.
Right exactly right first of all you can't get out of the mouth without any of the leak.
And you get it all done and you gotta go cut the other end.
And I was just thinking maybe it might be an easier way to put a diaphragm fitting on there that you can stick over a hypodermic type thing and get the water in that way.
Might be a little bit quicker way to do it.
Okay.
I think you do to make it easier is going to help increase the consumption, particularly during busy time periods.
Okay.
Could we get you, this is going to involve just really Alan and Ed.
We'd like to have you describe as well as you can the things that you did with your, with your biostromantation harnesses when, because it's very hard for us to be sure exactly what happened.
And we don't have that stuff back yet we're going to set it, we've got to cut it off a plan of troubleshoot it.
And as I entered the thing that happened with yourself just from our point.
Not the actions, not the words.
You want the actions, not the words.
The actions, not the words, yeah.
Okay.
Well you said in some of the words too.
But what, from our point of view what happened with your particular harnesses, everything was fine when everybody left the MSOB, okay.
We got, when you got into the spacecraft, right after you got, apparently when you were getting cinched down somehow, because we had about three minutes or so after you were in the, in the couch of good data.
And then we began to get erratic, they began to want, the baseline began to want all over the place.
That continued to get worse and worse and pretty soon it was going just full scale, which was totally unreadable.
So the question was okay, it was a question about hatch closure at that point in time.
We decided right then, I said well hell we're going to go, we're going to go without that because I'm sure it's a sensor, and the only way to get at it anyway, if you, we asked you then to try and press on those things.
If that wouldn't do it, if that wouldn't recede it, then the first opportunity would be when we got you actually in flight.
Now we don't know why, but it came back, it was gone still, when you went over Australia as you came back up on the states magically.
There we had data, and we went back to the MSOB from the firing room to catch that pass, and there you were, it was beautiful, just as if nothing had ever happened.
And you hadn't done a damn thing, because then we asked them, you know, now, as we understand when you looked at that sensor then, that you did have some material that had leaked out from underneath it.
And you, and we understand that you replaced that, so you cleaned up and replaced that sensor, is that right?
We didn't replace the sensor, no.
Okay, just to clean it off, refill it, put a new sticky back on it and put it back on.
Yeah, okay.
That was the second day in the flight.
Yeah, right, yeah.
That was the first time that we really, and that we asked you to do that then because we thought we'd get it out of the way before you got into the, okay.
And then you had another...
It also changed the adapter, the CWG adapter, because then one time on the flight they said my column wasn't very good.
Yeah, your column was terrible, right?
Yeah, a spare adapter, and so it changed that.
Exactly, and that was, I don't know.
But that was pretty early, too.
I think it was the first day, right?
Yeah, I think it was the first day.
The student, well, that was the Lord.
That was everything to do with the launch problem, because the question was...
No.
No.
And we had a respiration.
You can see respiration, but we didn't have the...
That's good.
Yeah, yeah.
But we didn't have the ECG.
Yeah, very, very sure you can make it.
Yeah, all right, good.
Yeah, can you correlate the appearance of your EKG signal with any flight activity that you might have been doing it?
I sure can't.
I'm just as simplified about that as you were.
I tried to press it through the suit or anything.
It happened.
I can't feel anything through the suit.
Well, you were free then, though.
You had your helmet gloves off.
It was one hour and every minute's GTO.
I don't know if that brings any bells to you.
How was it bus arrived at that time when we were moving around with the bus sensation checklist and this movement of the couch, like...
I imagine getting some things that pulled out and still had some stuff.
It's probably...
It just got to be that you were probably just...
It was in the cinching down in the couch that it probably loosened that edge of that sensor somehow a little bit.
And I don't know why.
Or put a cramp in a lead or brought it to contact with something else.
Yeah.
Because it sure came back fine after that.
Okay.
In the second time, what else did you have with yours out from your point?
What else did you do to the thing?
The only other thing I noticed was about the next of the last day that the thread coupling between the sensor line, the sensor harness, and the belt.
The little characteristics are in the belt.
On top of the signal conditioner.
It had to strip the threads. I could get it to hold a little bit.
And apparently the signal was fine, then it would slip off.
It came back beautifully, didn't you tell you?
But then, when I unsuited at the end, I noticed that was loose.
So, if it was a friendly strip, it would probably get cranked down too hard.
Did you routinely disconnect that connector at the signal conditioner for sleep or for bowel movement?
It would not be slight for bowel movements and for swabbing down and cleaning out process.
Anytime you pulled your clothes off, either change clothes, or put on the LCG or use the blue bags, whatever, we all have to do.
Okay.
And then, you didn't replace anything.
You didn't have to reseed any sensor after that.
That was the only other thing you had was the second one.
It was the only time I took a sensor off.
Was that first?
That call was correct because we took it off and we didn't see the secret to the electric light.
Right.
Same with that.
Okay.
How about yours then, Ed?
The only thing that I replaced was that one sensor.
Which one?
And it was...
Do you was saying the whole sensor?
I don't mean replacing the sensor.
We pulled it off, cleaned it out, refilled it with the electric light, put it back on.
It was the same?
Just the same out.
No, no, no, no, no.
Okay.
You did not take the harness out of the kit and replaced the whole thing.
Okay.
Because we thought you had done that.
Well, you called and asked for that, but there wasn't time to do it.
So we took...
Glad you could hear what we said to me when you guys said that.
We took the chance that the real problem was simply the sensor and the electric light,
and that's what it was.
That's exactly what it was.
We couldn't affect the worst time in the standpoint of timeline.
Is that right?
We're just getting ready to go into the lab, you know.
Everybody's all asking elbows and suits and underwear and gear and books, everything,
all over the place.
I was sitting here hand-dressed.
I didn't want to go any further until we got a go on it.
We couldn't get the high bit right up for you guys to look at it.
Right.
And so...
I remember the most wasn't any time left, so we changed that when I went hand-dressed.
Yeah.
Do you know when you came up there, though, that the data, you gave us about two minutes
when the high gain did lock on, and we got two minutes of data, and it still showed
that the loose sensor.
Now, what did you do the second time?
You came up and asked us how the data looked, and we said it looked poor yet, and we gave
you no longer the suiting to change out behind us.
I don't recall exactly the sequence of events.
When I called and asked for you to check it, as far as I know, we did nothing after that,
to make sure everything was cinched down and went ahead and dressed.
Didn't you do something with the fluid in there?
Yeah, but I had already done it at that point.
I changed the electrolyte when I called and asked you guys to check it.
I did nothing after that, except just to make sure everything was secure.
Yeah, because you see, the first time you called the data was poor, and that was the basis
for the call to change out the whole highness, because we said, well, it wasn't that sensor,
and we didn't have time to talk to you, because LOS was coming up, so we said, go ahead and
change out the whole thing.
But whatever you did subsequently corrected it, because it came back beautifully.
So we assumed you had just changed out the whole highness.
Let's bring a little hole in the water.
Yeah.
[LAUGHTER]
Ziggy, now that you mentioned it, you know, I just can't remember precisely when we changed
it, but I'm thinking that it was already changed at that point.
Oh.
Okay.
It was just the lower strum.
It was the lower strum.
Same as the same as L.
I remember they changed.
It was electrolyte that was revealed.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Taking it off and putting it back.
Putting it back.
Just sticking it back.
Okay.
And you think you did that before LOS?
Yeah.
He probably did what we're thinking now.
He happened probably took a while before to see properly, and then when he came around, it
was good.
Good.
Well, his state, state good then, and we were having trouble with yours going in, you begin
to get this laundry baseline on yours again before the, you know, after we got into the
limit.
So there was a question in our minds about it.
Is there any way we could do it to get that better, you know, to make that better.
We were trying to find, trying to figure some way.
Could you reach around when you were in the suit?
Is there any way you could get at that thing if you took like after the EVA, you ended up
picking the helmet off.
Could you get down into the, into the suit here?
You really have to have the upper torso garment, the upper part of the torso garment clear
of the body in order to be able to feel that.
In order to feel that way, you can definitely tell, you know, the other guy goes through
the backs if we're around in front.
Then we tried that on the ground to see if you could do that.
That's pretty hard to do.
The most you can do is press on it.
After all that time of quarantine, that's pretty dangerous too.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
You can still wear your hands, is that okay?
Alright.
Forget the EVA, just keep pulling in my sensory.
Yeah.
You've got two hours to stop that.
Oh, okay.
The thing we got from the sleep, which I think is fairly well carded, if you have any day
on to that, we'd like you to.
But what we got out of it is that all of you pretty well never really had a solid, long
sleep period that it was broken and it was things like a couple of hours at a time or something.
And I gather that the reasons for that vary, you had some difficulty with wanting to feel
some pressure in the end's case.
I know, and now I mentioned this too, and Stu didn't like the couch.
And then you ended up in the limb.
The thing was being the suits all the time and then the tilt of the limb too.
Both of those things probably had a lot to do with sleep activity.
Is there anything else that you think you can add?
Did you feel that you were arrested enough to do the task even with the sleep that you had?
Yeah, but I think we're working on reserves.
Yeah, I did too.
Well, there were two days that we felt sloppy.
One was the second day out after the excitement of the launch and all that activity.
Being, coming and becoming acclimated to the new environment.
So we felt like we weren't really clinging along too well on the second day out.
The day after DEI, although we all apparently slept better after DEI that night, I guess
was probably the terms of continuously before the best night of the launch.
Still, the next day we felt like we were not really organized.
We got things done, but the little things were not being handled as neatly as we would like to receive.
So these are the only two days we felt we were going to work on top of them.
I think, Chuck, I feel that for no longer than we work for nine days,
that you can get along on a fairly small amount of sleep in just your reserves and your discipline
and everything else makes you do the job properly.
But in my case, I felt very strongly that I was on reserves, that physically I was going downhill.
And it was of some concern to me that I wasn't getting enough sleep.
I knew I wasn't getting enough sleep.
And yet, I felt fairly wide awake and alert on most of the days, except the two days I was talking about.
But sleeping to me was a very insecure experience.
And how do you mean insecure?
Because of this wanting something to bring?
I don't want to feel like you, the best I can say, feel like you were in a bed.
And wanting to feel some pressure or to be lying on something.
It was a pleasant day to go down.
I knew we'd get back to that.
It was really a pleasant experience to be in zero-g during the daytime, I thought.
It wasn't quite so pleasant an experience at night.
Well, did you feel, that brings up the scene.
Did you feel, I get it from Al's comments in particular, this business of using your legs
and your feet to try and hang on to something, which has been described by other guys, too, at some length?
Did you have a feeling that that was the cause of this muscle business in your back?
Because that's been described and they've never been able to really put a hand on it.
Why they felt they had that?
They've had this sort of feeling that if they could just stretch that real good.
Do you think it is due to the fact that you were trying to drop on something?
Yeah, as soon as that's what I analyzed after the first couple of days, I think we discussed it as a matter of fact.
So we started exercise and then deliberately take time to relax, not only in the sleep room,
but also try to adapt ourselves to a relaxed state during the awake periods in the seats
or on the optics or on the tunnel or something.
And after the second day, it kind of went away.
Yeah, that small of the back problem was gone after a couple of days.
And in fact, I was kind of surprised that woke up that first morning and my back had bothered me during the night.
And I didn't realize that Alan Ed's head back was bothering him at that time, too.
And I said, "You know, I really didn't get that much sleep, but this sounds crazy as all hell."
Because I can lay on that big fine king-sized bed at the house, and if I get a lot of sleep, you know,
if I lay there for, say, 10 or 11 hours, why the small of my back bothers me.
And I said to these guys, I said, "Hey, this is crazy. I didn't sleep that much last night,
but my back feels just like I've got about 11 hours sleep."
And they said, "Well, mine does, too." And then we got to talking about it.
But it was there, and it was very conscious to me that first night.
In fact, I thought probably my back kept me going to sleep as much as the new environment,
rather than the zero G, because I was always conscious of my back bothers me.
Did you ever think about taking aspirin or anything with anything with that?
Did you ever take aspirin at all?
For them?
For the eighth?
I think until the time we discussed it, I was convinced that the reason I was feeling bad,
in the back, was just not urinating for so damn long during that whole...
I wondered if you went first back.
I did think that.
And then after we started discussing it, I said, "Well, that may not be the problem,
or if so, that's just part of the problem."
Yeah, everybody's got it.
Everybody's got it.
And I agree without it. It has something to do with the way you try to use your feet to stabilize yourself.
And I found, I believe, although I couldn't see myself,
I believe that when I was relaxing in the spacecraft and G, I was in a curved position.
And it felt good to throw the shoulders back and straighten out,
or to take the X-ray gym and get some tension on those back muscles.
You tend to assume, sorry, it's sort of like a fetal position.
If you just totally relax, your legs will tend to float up and come up in a sort of a semi-c,
and your hands will tend to float out about like this, and your back hands depend on them.
So it tends to assume that kind of a decision.
If you just let all your muscles go, so you don't have any muscles to float on.
Oh, I tell you, one of the good things for that back, too, is just exactly that position.
Just get yourself up like this.
And that first night, when my back was bothering me, I tried to sleep a good bit.
I'd reach down and grab a hold of my booties.
And I would lay there like that with pulling some pressure on my legs.
And it would really help, that smaller your back.
I found both things, either straighten it out to put some tension on the back muscles,
or as Stu says, double on it, and pull the other way.
How about when you got back onto the carrier now?
And you got into a bed then for the first time back in a 1G environment.
Did you have any feeling?
Did you have the feeling that you were real heavy, that you were sinking into the bed?
Did you have that when you were on a table or anything, on the X-ray table or anything?
None of you experienced that.
How about weight of clothes?
Did you have a weight of clothes?
No.
Pants were too heavy or they were falling or anything like that when you first got back.
Only thing I can remember about laying down on the bunk was it was a good relief to be able to lay on your stomach.
You know, generally, I don't know which way I sleep most back or stomach or what, but you know,
I always had the impression no matter in what position you are in the spacecraft, you're on your back.
And so I remember thinking of that.
The first thing I laid down in the bunk was I stretched out on my back and I said,
"Gee, I've been in this way for nine days. I think I'll turn over."
So I rolled over on my stomach. It felt pretty good.
Did any of you have any dreams at all? Did you ever dream of flying at all?
I did, but I couldn't for the life of a bird call.
Well, that doesn't matter.
Yeah, I had dreams.
But you didn't have dream activity at least because of that.
Yeah.
Yeah, I think of that heavy feeling, Chuck.
The only time I noticed it was after we had landed, we were still in the spacecraft.
We had a strap and the spacecraft were falling around a little bit and not too much.
Got down the LED right away in the first couple of steps, a combination of the rocking spacecraft
and being 1G again.
For perhaps, you know, 30 seconds, no more than answering.
That was my experience, too.
I started doing some deep deep bends right away for maybe 10, 12 of those babies.
And I was right back at home again and continued to feel that way.
No muscle soreness, no feeling heavy just for anything.
Did you, this feeling that you experienced when you first went down the LED was at, was that all over?
Or was that just having us in the legs?
Or did you just feel heavy all over for me?
Just all over for me.
How about when you first got some G on re-entry?
Did you have a sensation?
You had a lot more G than you really registered.
You go through that.
My right thing over 2G was I supposed to.
(Laughter)
You know that.
Do you like that one?
No, I don't know if anybody else has done it.
(Laughter)
No, I think you become very sensitive to G, like even, even all age on, in the spacecraft, you know.
Or, well that'd be, guess on time you'd really feel a G would be, as well as the SPS engine, of course.
You know, but on entry, certainly, you know, as you're going through 1G, it certainly doesn't seem like 1G.
It's, you're sensitive to the G.
Said he said I wasn't quite as busy during that initial period as they were.
I didn't have tracking tasks to keep me occupied.
I probably felt it more or was conscious of it more than they were.
And it felt to me like one hell of a load.
In particular, my one task was to be watching the time.
I couldn't get my arm up to see the watching until after a peak G let off.
And on about 4 or 5G, I could pull my arm up and take a look at it.
And I had the same sensation that Al did.
Right after I got out of the couch, I felt very, very heavy.
And then with just a little bit of motion, it seemed to go away.
And I'd say it kind of described a very sharp rise to return normal.
A very sharp rise and then an asymptotic to 1G because I still stumbled a couple of times getting out of the helicopter.
But I felt fine except I just didn't have the sureness of footing that I would like to have.
And that didn't last as far as footing, you know, that's a interesting thing that the Russians had after their A.K.
They had some real smart mobility problems that lasted for days.
And we've never had anything of that.
We've always had some initial footing problem.
You know, just getting used to being back on a 1G problem.
And then you're on a shift too, which is moving around.
And this didn't last for any of you for longer than a few minutes really getting out of the helicopter.
No, neither died like this.
You were putting your feet in the right place.
Did you feel like when you were walking, as you were walking normally, that your steps were normal and everything?
You didn't have to worry about where your feet were?
No, I think that up to the point we got in the MQF, I felt that it took a little care to make sure my foot was going where it was supposed to be going.
But it wasn't out of the ordinary, you know, really severe anything.
No, it seemed to be improving very rapidly from a very heavy state for the first 30 to 45 seconds after I got out of the couch
to within an hour or so after I was in the MQF, the footing was very short.
But I do remember stumbling once going into the MQF from the helicopter.
And I didn't see anything stumble over. It just stumbled.
You know, I think how you do that right now though.
If you're going to walk out of that door with the television camera on you
and you're going to walk up to the front of the steps, you'd be more conscious of your footing.
You'd be more conscious of your footing whether or not you'd been in zero G or not.
If you're like carrying a load, you're going to look very carefully where you're sitting.
Do you want to get knocked down?
Yeah, and you in particular know that, you know, you've just come back from a flight
and people are going to be watching how you're walking and all of this stuff.
So, you know, it's in your mind and, you know, you've got to walk this 30 feet to the MQF.
I mean, just naturally you're more conscious of where you're going to put your foot.
Well, I may have psyched myself into stumbling for that reason, but nevertheless, I did stumble.
[laughter]
It's part of the fact that I was a conscious of the flight that TV cameras were on.
Did you notice any distortion of your facial features at all?
Did you weep?
If you look at the TV, the in-flight TV, as we watched you, you know, inside the spacecraft,
you get the impression that your faces are not like they are now, that they're much rounder.
That's a thing that you see on the TV.
Is that true? Did you feel that when you were looking at each other?
You know, but I observed it when I saw a picture of us taking from that TV.
I didn't think anything about it until you mentioned it.
It looks quite round. You look much different than you do now.
It's very rounded.
But you weren't aware of that looking at each other?
You know, Al Bean has made a comment of that in the 12 reports.
It actually got into orbit. He looked around and everybody looked 20 pounds heavier.
And I remember that.
And I looked at these guys, you know, and they looked just as bad as they did now.
I had to remember that comment from Al Bean's report and I really didn't notice it.
The 12 crew, I guess, was the most impressed with that of anybody.
And they noticed that they felt even that they had redness of the face for several hours after they first achieved orbit.
Well, it's a general failure of all of a sudden.
Yes.
But I mean, just to look at a person and see his face puffed up, I didn't notice that at all.
Maybe it was just lack of observation.
But I remember for the first five hours, I went too busy doing the other day.
Did you have any sensation that in the first 24 hours in flight that you urinated more than you normally would
than you did the rest of the flight time?
I don't know.
That's a hard thing to remember, but do you have any idea that you did that at all?
I never used my UCTA.
That first one was a whopper, I know that.
Of course, you get a lot of excitement to make it a whopper anyway, so it's hard.
No real...
No real one with the other one, I didn't see it.
Okay.
Was the...can you comment on the work that you did EVA out on the lunar surface as far as what you felt
based on versus your ground training?
Did you think it was harder, easier, about the same?
And secondly, as a second question, did either of you feel really physically tired to the point that you knew
you were really tired during the EVAs, even going out and calling?
I felt, of course, it was an order of magnitude easier than 1G training.
Just no comparison at all as we expected it to be.
And as far as being tired, I think I had already made up my mind that I did not want to sweat
on the moon, that I was going to keep the water up and I was going to keep rested enough so that I didn't sweat
for consumables and for fatigue purposes.
So I never really felt tired.
I did feel occasionally that I was approaching the point where I'd have to have more cooling or take a break.
But it wasn't because of a tired feeling.
It was the desire to program and plan consumables the way we wanted to.
And that do not be hard.
So I felt in my mind that I was stopping short of the point of fatigue as a direct plan of not wanting to use up consumables.
How am I even out?
Well, it's kind of hard to equate the preflight stuff with the flight stuff.
First of all, you're not using the LCG and the preflight stuff.
You're lifting one, essentially 1G pieces of equipment around so on.
So it's pretty hard to equate the two in my mind as to whether it was harder or easier and even flight.
On the standpoint of the total workout.
But certainly standpoint of ease of mobility is what it is.
It's a lot easier to get around.
I think you travel a lot faster and easier on the surface because the general comment started off.
DBA 1, I did not feel uncomfortable at any time at all.
DBA 2, I think the fact that I was unaware of the workload was manifested primarily in a respiration rate as opposed to anything else.
I didn't feel as though the body heat was going up too much.
The deep body heat was going up too much.
I think this is primarily because of the circulating fluid in the LCG.
And I was not aware of any profuse of the sweating.
Just a little thing to change of sweating and blushing, whatever you want to call it.
It was when I went to the medium flow on the water.
I think in question, I'm not really aware of an increase in heart rate,
but specifically stopping measurement.
So I think to me, the thing that was most obvious about the increased workload was the respiration rate.
And at times, I think we suggested that climbing the steepest grade of the crater would have come when we stopped and decorated.
I think you all suggest that.
Right.
But the standpoint of being tired to the degree where we didn't want to press on after short a respiration rate,
no, I didn't feel that at any time until after the two days was over and we went back into the command module.
And it really felt like I was behind the Pollock area as far as a total workload.
Well, we'll try and give you some firm feeling for what happened with your UVA's when we do this later.
You know, we show you actually what, you know, you did have some times where you both got heart rates that were up in 150 years.
And this is why we felt, and your respiratory rates were very audible.
And we didn't have a respiration trace on you at that time as you know, but you did have very audible respiratory rates.
And it was obvious that you were increasing those.
And now I think you began to store, I think you, the thing is you kept yours on men for a long time.
And then when you did turn up to medium flow, you just left it there a short period of time.
And it didn't kick your rate down as much because you still were maintaining some of that heat in there now.
It wasn't enough to make you sweat apparently.
And then when you started doing that, turning it on a little bit longer, you just settle right back down.
You didn't have any trouble with it at all.
But both of you came down very well.
When you would rest, your rates dropped down.
And that's contrary to what happened on 12, where they didn't drop down when they rested.
And yours did very well.
They just dropped, they'd come right on down as soon as you stopped doing that activity.
So that's it.
You have a feeling that you could have, but you have a feeling, any recommendation about extending EVAs now?
I mean, do you feel that it would be possible with proper consumables, of course, that you could, that it's physically possible to do that?
I sure do. The thing that bothered me was the worrying about consumables.
I knew, knowing that we were getting a higher metabolic load, the higher heart rate, more oxygen consumption, going outcome greater,
and that I was spending more time on between minimum and intermediate cooling,
because we were rushing, deliberately rushing to try to make up time.
I started worrying about consumables, and especially in the water in the oxygen.
And I felt that was a limiting factor. I didn't feel that I was a limiting factor.
Just the oxygen in the water I was consuming were bothering me.
Well, we tried to give you the word that you were pretty fat on consumables really at the time.
We thought you were trying to save consumables, obviously.
Yeah, we were.
Yeah. And understandably so.
And so we wanted you to know that you had enough and you could go to medium flow without really getting yourself in a hole,
because it's the thing we want you to know.
And after you did that, I spent considerably more time on between minimum and intermediate
levels you did.
Yeah. I'll go to Dow. Yeah. You both did.
I don't think the comment is like the comment about how the workload was expected to the two-day period.
I wouldn't want to see a crew ever plan to do any more than we did in those two days.
That's not a concern, that's about heavy workloads anybody ought to do.
And certainly, if you're going to go off the long and crazy VBA, you ought to allow a long and crazy investment.
And make sure somehow that they get the rest.
Yeah. Just allowing the time doesn't necessarily sure rest.
Well, tell me, if you had, you know, in the, in the limb, I gather one of the things that you think would help,
of course, would be getting out of a suit. That certainly would help if you could get out of a suit in the limb.
No question about that.
If you had something for sleep, would you take it? Would, wouldn't you guys have taken the limb if you had something for sleep in things?
I don't think so because I don't think I don't want to advise her. You don't take that kind of medication here in the ground.
It's an individual thing. It's quite obviously and, you know, it just depends on how to do things as closely and,
especially if you can't really run environments probably the way everybody would.
Right.
So if you have people that do that in the ground problems and help them in the...
I'd prefer to see us using more natural means of getting a sleep as opposed to an artificial human.
You'd like to ask something to sleep on, please.
[Laughter]
I think the suits are a big thing, as far as I was concerned.
Yeah.
You keep on coming up.
Good role, right?
[Laughter]
You know, even if you couldn't roll around the hammock and then the neck ring and then the back of the neck and the scum.
Yeah.
There was one thing, Chuck, about fatigue, the only thing that I felt to keep,
any muscle type of tape was a darn hand muscle in the right hand because of the blood.
Because you were fighting that glove.
Yeah.
And working the core tubes, getting unscrewing the core tubes, one of them I couldn't get by myself.
Getting the caps off of them, that was very fatiguing and that arm gave out.
How about when you're carrying a barbell out there and you're getting this thing?
You said you had to do it quietly.
Well, that was tiring.
It just because it's so cumbersome and it's flopping all around.
But I eventually put it across my arms like that and just aside from the workload of carrying it out, it was no problem.
It was heavy.
It was the weight, didn't seem different because you commented at the time and it sounded and it looked like you were having trouble getting out there.
Was it the weight of it or was it just the fact that it was vibrating and it was sort of like the vision of it?
It was mostly the vibration of it, just flopping that.
flopping that.
However, I think that it was heavier than I expected from the 1/6 G mock-up.
But we had never carried it that far in training.
And I think we made that recommendation that at least once the guys don't carry it the whole way.
But it was primarily the flopping of those weights on the end that were giving trouble.
Let's get the- I gathered it on this bowel movement thing, the preps and so forth.
You had a good comment in there that went fairly well.
You all did the same thing.
We knew pre-flight anyway.
How did it work out though?
Do you remember?
Can you just tell us each one how you went?
I gather it but almost to the end without having one according to a comment.
Where did you go?
Where did you go?
Where did you go?
Where did you go?
I went for the morning of the 8th day.
To the morning of the 8th day it was the first month.
And that's the only one I assumed.
I didn't plan it that way.
What I wanted to do was to have one bowel movement before we went to the surface.
So that would take care of that period of time.
And I went around with a bag on my fanny for about 12 hours.
Hopefully I can do something and never did.
And at one point I even wished that we had all axed in important to help me do that.
I'm not sure whether that's a good idea or not but it sure seemed like it at the time.
And I was really concerned that I need to have a bowel movement while we're on the surface.
And I got through that period, figured well we got it made.
It could be good to get back to the men module and use the bag.
And I still couldn't.
It was the 8th day.
And it was a walker.
Did you ever get any cramps or anything like that?
No, but never had any gut.
Got no surface at all.
I wasn't uncomfortable.
I didn't even have a feeling of fullness.
Good.
How about you out?
How did your cycle go?
Well I had one and a half bags on the 3rd day before us.
And another bag on about the 7th day, certain kind of thing.
And no problem.
There were normal consistency in the tourist part.
But that's really it.
I agree with you.
We got to fight it better.
The total hygiene thing in this thing is so our take is unbelievable.
We just got to do better in that if we're going to keep people in space.
It's really the only time we didn't feel civilized.
Yeah.
The whole mess as a big man.
And the ability to clean up afterwards and affect is the ability to maintain personal hygiene
throughout the flight.
It's only if we need better stuff.
Still how about you?
I went to 80 hours.
I remember distinctly because I said between 80 and 81 hours approaching L.O.I. while I'm going to do it.
Which pleasantly surprised me too while we're on the gory subject because pre-flight I anticipated
that I might have to use the bag more than that because in my normal course of events it's very common for me to hit the head at least twice a day.
And so I was pleasantly surprised that I got to 80 hours.
And then I had one other one and it was after TDI.
I guess the next day after TDI and I don't remember what time frame it was.
It was the day after TDI.
And okay I don't remember the G.E.T. or anything. I can't associate it with anything except these guys and their guests.
I don't know what else is going on at that time.
Yeah, these guys.
Okay.
When did you first start to use the nose drops?
How far into that?
Do you remember what date?
Three I think.
Third date.
And do you feel that that was a, I'm a little bit confused about your description.
You're describing this fullness.
And still do you feel that this was a thing that was associated with this fullness that was due to the weightlessness or do you think it was an oxygen effect?
Just due to the drying and so forth.
I never felt that dry.
And at the time I thought it could have been either or both.
And so I just treated it symptomatically with a couple of about one drop in each nostril and it was completely infected for the next ten to twelve hours.
Well you could hear it. This is a fairly routine. You hear this in the guy's voices and you know they're doing it.
You hear this full feeling that they have.
Sometimes they get a little bit of horse sensation with it too.
And it comes and goes and you described it I thought very well yesterday and I didn't want it to be.
You wake up and be better in the morning.
You know.
I don't know. This is kind of a subjective feeling.
It kind of felt that maybe the whole full head sensation was related to a really doesn't mean the whole cardiovascular system.
And therefore it is.
If you could relax a little bit in the evening and help at this point there.
I mean you kind of wished it that way.
It's just a general feeling.
I think it's a substantiated one.
And I think as far as the nose drops have been sort of helped with the mucus.
But it didn't help the overall full sensation.
Did they work all right?
They made it clear out the mucus temporarily a few hours.
Yeah.
And still what about now did you just give yourself too big a slug?
Is that what happened to it?
I think I probably did Chuck.
I'm sure that's what happened.
You know I said well I hadn't used any up to land but on entry.
You know I said well I think I'll just use some of these beauties.
And I think I hit maybe too big a dose in the right nostril here because poor my eye started watering and I could feel it my sinuses and everything else.
And then but it lasted maybe an hour.
And by the time I probably did that a couple three hours prior to entry and an hour later you know I think most of the symptoms have gone away that you're getting closer to entry and you stop worrying about it.
But I did I think I overdid it.
And I just you know I hardly ever take any nose drops or anything.
And maybe I just got too much in there.
It's probably pretty powerful stuff.
It is powerful.
I know if I in one G or here if I take more than a couple drops of effort if I use drops instead of spray I get the same effect.
And it wasn't a lack of briefing or not trying it before flight or anything like that.
I think I just a little overzealous in that in the application.
Well you know two drops of good.
Give us four.
Yeah.
What the hell.
Did you feel it you got any did you get a tack of cardio with that you didn't really increase in heart rate with that.
Oh I haven't focused on it.
You didn't you didn't feel it anyway.
Yeah.
Y'all had.
It comes a little more adrenaline.
You got mad at us for suggesting that we use the gun.
Y'all stayed off at the suggestion.
Did you all had some some evidence in your ears on after on the first exam when Bill saw you having some some bubbles in there.
And did you have any sensation during reentry that you were having trouble clearing your ears any of you.
No sense.
No.
That's right.
It's surprising to me I was looking for it.
It's surprising to me.
I have no problem.
No I'm bad.
I could feel the pressure change.
But I know I could hear them pop.
But you know I could do I did that too on my suit integrity check.
I could feel the pressure.
Yeah.
And you know and you just sort of pop it.
Had like me come in before I forget about this voice sounding full.
You know I noticed that that you'll do that a lot if you I think maybe it's because the atmosphere is dry.
But if you're doing a lot of talking and then you come on and I would notice myself sounding sound and full.
And I said gee I'm sounding like that.
And my head wasn't constantly full at all.
But I could tell in my voice that I was sounding.
You're in your voice.
If you've been doing a lot of talking.
Right.
Well that's true.
If you do you know like if you end up just talking all day like if you end up here like in a session.
Yesterday when you talked a lot.
That kind of thing if you just talk a lot during the day.
You can have it.
We don't have to myself do it here Charles.
Yeah.
Now back to that.
Hey Chuck.
Come in on those.
We were looking for somebody to kind of go out.
Who is it?
I'm getting into the half of it.
The comment on the after bottle.
The pressure gets to them and they separate into the jillion bubbles.
That emulsion is very bubbly filled with air.
As soon as you take the cap off it comes out.
It starts leaking.
It's a knowledge.
Okay.
Okay.
And it's kind of difficult to control that stuff.
That was the first time you opened the bottle.
All right.
Always.
Every time you open it up.
Okay.
So what technique did you use for finding those drops?
How did you put it in?
Very gentle squeeze trying to get just one drop of your time out.
Just put the drop up.
Put it in there and hose it.
Just like we told it to.
[Laughter]
What did you take those PRDs down in your suits?
Take them.
I don't believe it.
Charles, we had zipper pockets.
You're kidding.
It's unbelievable.
They weren't there.
We pulled out those coveralls and they were zippers on them.
First time we'd seen zippers, no old trays.
I'll be.
They're not in the training suits.
They're just out of this place.
They're so close.
Well, how about that?
Okay.
Where did we get?
We had requested it way, way back and forgotten about that we made the official request and it was already in the mail and nobody who put it.
And now the training devices were that way below and below and below and below.
The package they came with.
[Laughter]
Oh, that's great.
They were great too.
[Inaudible]
Okay.
[Inaudible]
Well, I don't understand what that is.
Well, when you remove your PGA's out, is there a point of the checklist where we should include the removal of the PRDs back into your flight coveralls or is that not there?
It's already says, take all the items out of here.
Oh, it does?
It says.
That happens to be one that's by itself.
I see.
If you forget that extra pockets there, you're good.
Well, now it's listed in there when we take the suits off the first day.
I guess, you know, and then when you bring the suits back over from the land wide, you know, a pretty rushed timeline that, I don't know, is it being a good to put that in your timeline book or not?
Because at that time, your main purpose is just get the suits and get them stuck.
Yeah, you said you jerk them down and kind of zipped up in those bangs pretty fast.
Right into the back.
Okay.
Probably wouldn't hurt, I guess, when we list the items to take out of the suits.
When we come back to the land, we've just had PRDs in there as another item.
Well, this sunglasses and pencils and all the rest of them.
That's right.
When you said you used sunglasses, you only wanted to use sunglasses.
Is that right?
Okay, when did you use the correct one?
Just in the command module.
No, I don't know.
Did you have any feeling about that on the lunar surface that the light levels were bothersome to you because of that?
Because that is a very typical thing.
The light levels were generally higher in the lunar module.
The thing that you don't simulate on the LMS is the difference between day and night on the afternoon.
How about out on the surface?
How about out on the surface when you were actually out on the surface and had your visor down?
Did those light levels bother you at all?
Did you feel that you were having any difficulties?
Yeah, the problems I had was reading small print that were close, just in the light levels low, and I had the problem in the LMS.
A couple of times from the CMS in the LMS, I think I don't know how many times I wrote them out.
I don't know, perhaps six or eight times.
I'll try to read them down in this car because it's the best only time I've ever seen you use them.
Yeah, but all the surface chug, it's either dark white, I mean dazzling white, or it's absolutely black.
Or it's black.
I don't think I said it had a great deal to do with it at that point.
Yeah, that's right.
I think you've covered most of that stuff about the vision on the surface and sort of pretty well in there.
I think you've done that very well in the thing, so I don't think we need to.
If we have something that comes back up for that, we'll give the word to you.
But as far as I can tell from getting through all that so far, I think we've got most of that covered.
You know, I might point out to you if you want to pursue the visibility further for any sort of medical things.
If you look at the photographs, in my opinion, they're exactly what we saw.
Is that right?
If you look cross-sun, the visibility is great.
If you look up-sun, everything's layered out by the sun.
If you look down-sun, all of the general, the sun rolling, and the subdued craters, they just disappear on them.
But cross-sun visibility is great, and the photographs show up the same way.
You know, just real brief on that same subject, it's kind of hard to tell when you're looking at just negatives
at 70 millimeters, but I was looking at some of the zero-phase pictures last night
and how the targets would disappear at zero-phase.
It does it on the films also.
And as it turned out, I'll have to get, you know, see what the prints look like.
But my first impression is that I didn't see much more than what the camera did at zero-phase,
which is going to surprise me because I would have thought different.
But I don't take that as any sort of data until I've had a chance to really see a blown-up print.
You know, I'm just looking at some negatives in here.
But that's my first impression.
We've always said that the eyeball can see more than the film can,
but with our particular film, I think they're a pretty good correspondent.
Not going to be about the same.
That's great.
Yeah, it's insinuating we have a bad eyeball.
No, we just have a good film.
That's a pretty great thing.
Hey, on the sunglasses, I guess you got it.
And as far as I know, nobody even broke their sunglasses out.
Right.
And you didn't see any of them?
No, I didn't.
Well, I think the only time we needed them was when there was sunshafting in.
But in PTC, you just wait a couple minutes.
It could be gone.
It goes away.
Okay.
And there was a time in 196 hours where we lost your respiratory, your CPN.
Did you notice whether it was the signal conditioner disconnected then,
or was there a sensor loose or anything?
No, there was nothing different.
It just went.
You couldn't see anything obvious as to why.
No, it went down and went over the whole system.
We checked the sensors, checked the belt, checked the connection.
And we were getting too close to entry to really do a great deal of troubleshooting.
There was no point to do it then.
Okay, fine.
Well, we're going to check those in.
We've never had a signal conditioner as such fail.
And that's one of the things that's sort of interesting to win the sensor problem.
We want to be sure to check those signal conditioners out.
Okay.
I think we've got most of this mobility thing done in there.
I was talking about that, Bob and Bill.
Let me just say, I think my urine bite problem, the U-C-T-A, is kind of related to that bill.
And that, you know, the U-C-T-A is held by that plastic strap.
Right.
Yeah, I think the problem in getting that hose length correct has to do with the fact that
the U-C-T doesn't always end up in the same place.
You try to get it below the belt so that it doesn't get on top of it and increase the
dimension of the way you already know.
And I think in doing that, I've probably been worried a little more, you know,
before the gun down here, maybe, in retrospect.
In some way, I think it'd be fixed.
Yeah.
Then it wouldn't move up and down.
And therefore, you could adjust the hose length.
Who better?
I wore mine differently.
I wore mine over the belt.
That might be the deal.
Well, I think it's a question of fixing the vertical height of that thing.
You can't get to the right length of the hose because mine was up and down.
I think when you reached in, you probably thought it was sagging down as a result of being
full of fluid in one hand, but also because I used to work below the U-C belt and the other.
Yeah.
But his hose had a definite kink in it.
It came out of the fitting.
It made a sharp kink.
And it was, it was like a, it was kink just like you see it on the pin.
Yeah.
Very good.
Did you have, did you feel any real dryness of skin as such or dryness of your lips or
your nose at all?
Did you ever have any sensation that way?
Not exceptionally for me.
I shouldn't have any obvious sensations.
I know, I don't know the stupid.
I noticed his lips were cracking about the fourth or fifth day.
We got lagging from TDI's.
But I don't know what you got it about.
So I didn't feel dry, in fact I know they're cracking in here too.
But no, I didn't, I didn't feel any dryness particularly though.
Okay.
I think we got these all together.
Did they talk to you about the Phil Chandler and I wanted to tack on the light flash thing
on the end of this thing?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Hey Chuck, just real fast.
I know you've got to take the data and you're looking ahead to the longer flights.
I'm not trying to downplay it.
But this weight loss, you know, I think in my case I don't want to be misconstrued.
You know, I was just sitting there thinking, you know, I weighed less after our field trip to Iceland than I did after this flight too.
You know, a weight loss of me of five pounds is no, just, you know, comes and goes with no problem at all.
That's why the body water things are going to be pretty important.
Yeah.
You know, is that really it?
You know, is it really a total body water loss?
I don't, that'll be a real important plug to hang on there.
That's why we'll go over that way so it is, it is clear.
We won't have a total body water or something or exercise your food spaces.
We'll have to quarantine now when we've done the data.
Those are, those are data matters.
We're just doing the gamma counting in here.
Why can't we get it out?
I don't want to lie to you that way.
We're just not, we're just not quick.
Let's get it out.
I'll talk with you later.
Okay.
There's a scientist, let's go.
Let's go.
Yeah, there he is.
Phil, go out.
If y'all want any coffee, I've got a big pot right here.
Yeah, I'm coming over to get some run now.
What are you doing?
I think suggested that, that we should tack on a few questions about light flashes.
The end is briefing.
That's what we're about to do.
What we'd like to do is to clarify some of the subjective impressions that you've got
of what you saw on the way of light flashes and also to, to clarify the conditions under which you saw them.
Steve, can you stand back from the mic just a little bit?
That's a boom mic.
He told you to sit right here and he'll pick it up.
He'll be really glad of us out there.
Let's go.
You need to get really close, in my case.
You should arrive in my case.
Is there a way that the room could be dark?
That the room could be dark?
Yeah.
In a while.
You know what?
Okay, the first question we got is the streaks that you saw with a very sharp phenomenon or with a rather diffuse, like fuzzy.
One's I saw were very sharp because there was no mistaking what it was.
It was a streak.
So long.
Against the pen, your sleeve was very cool.
Yeah, I think that's correct.
Both the single streak and the double shot occurred to be very clear to me.
They were quite clear.
I think I made the comment over the look that most of my streaks appeared to be on the periphery.
And for the first several days, I got the impression that this direction was predominant.
Later on, it appeared that I don't think I could get that good pattern.
But that was my first impression for the first couple of days.
The next question is, was there any apparent direction of propagation?
And could you tell it was coming from one side to the other or was it just a flash?
Several times you'd say, from the left to the right or something like that.
Tried to correlate it, but in my case, I couldn't really correlate a pattern out of it.
Yeah, I would think that the time period in which we tried to report them streak by streak, flash by flash, was represented.
And it was my feeling that it was generally random during that time period and therefore generally random throughout the time that we were noticing.
No, I meant, could you detect that it was moving from one side to the other in general?
It was moving in a specific way.
A specific flash, yes, yes.
But you could see it as a travel from one side to the other.
You could have tried to report it that way.
You never want to mess the way the flash is coming up because it happens.
It has to be very fast, you know.
And that question kind of redundant then?
I didn't believe you.
Was there some character to these flashes that had some aspect of direction?
Were they all the same rod shaped or were they?
Did they have a tail on them?
Well, so what I reported as a streak was simply that.
Now maybe the way we determined the direction subconsciously was that it was a ball of light moving in a direction leaving a tail.
But I don't, I can't say that for sure.
All I reported was a streak and I had the impression of it moving from one direction to the other.
And I reported that direction and I can't clarify if I could form that.
Do you want to ask me a question?
We just don't ask the lights.
I think they can see this in the dark room.
But just try it.
The idea is to try to see whether this is what you saw or similar to it.
I think you need to like that.
Can you see anything?
Yeah, that's what it looked like except it was traveling.
In other words, it started out and it definitely progressed across the field of view.
The direction of motion for an individual.
Was it that right?
Yeah, except you're not traveling. It was traveling.
You saw it at the point that it was a streak.
I know that it seemed too simultaneously either.
Neither did I.
You have two streaks on that. I never saw that.
At one time you saw a semi-colonary thing.
So what?
A semi-colonary thing.